Write Your Next Chapter with Shayna Ferm
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Description
Shayna Ferm and her co-founder Tracey Tee designed The Pump and Dump Show to connect to new moms about the realities of motherhood with humor, music, and community. Their show was growing exponentially, until in 2020 the covid-19 pandemic brought about an unexpected collapse. Today, Shayna is sharing candid reflections about her journey in forging a new path as a women's fiction author. Join us for an inspiring conversation about resilience, creativity, and the unexpected paths that lead to personal growth.
About Shayna Ferm
Shayna is a lifelong creative with nearly thirty years as a performer, producer, musician and writer. After building the brand, Band of Mothers, which included a nationally touring comedy show for moms called The Pump and Dump Show, alongside the Band of Mothers Podcast co-produced by Warner Bros, Shayna has redirected her talent to writing women's fiction novels that focus on crisis and self-discovery in midlife.
Follow Shay on Instagram at @shaynafermwrites
Learn more about Shay at her author website
Mentioned in this episode: Heather Garbo Book Coaching
About Heather McG
Heather is an Emmy and Cannes Lion Grand Prix-winning producer, author, and founder of McG Media. She is the creator of the happily never after, a 360-degree project that explores how life’s endings can lead to a new beginning. A twin mom, endurance athlete, and devoted Trekkie, sitting still has never been her forté.
Transcript
Heather McG (00:02)
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Happily Never After, a podcast where we explore how life's endings can lead to a new beginning. Now, if you enjoy the show, don't forget to rate, review, and follow us wherever you are listening or watching the show today. And my guest today is author Shayna Firne. Shay and I actually met 25 years ago, 25 years ago.
as college students back when we both attended the theater school at DePaul University. Through the wonders of social media, I've had a seat at the table to see all the steps of the story Shay is sharing today. And I can say that in addition to being extraordinarily talented, she is also so funny, so generous and so kind. And to get to know her a little bit, Shayna is a lifelong creative with nearly 30 years as a performer, producer, musician and writer. She can do like 800,000 things well.
After building the brand Band of Mothers, which included a nationally touring comedy show for moms called the Pump and Dump Show, some of y'all may have heard of this, alongside the Band of Mothers podcast, which was co-produced by Warner Brothers, Shayna has redirected her talent to writing women's fiction novels that focus on crisis and self-discovery in midlife. Shay, I'm so happy to have you here.
Shayna Ferm (01:23)
Thank you, thank you for that kind introduction. I sound like very much more exciting than I feel.
Heather McG (01:31)
Bios are good for that. It's like, wow, I did do that, didn't I?
Shayna Ferm (01:36)
I like it.
Heather McG (01:37)
It's a good way to start. Okay, so this show is all about how life's endings can lead to a new beginning. Can you talk about, there's a big ending that you went through a few years ago during the pandemic. Can you take us through what happened?
Shayna Ferm (01:38)
Thank
So first of all, I want to just preface this by saying that nobody close to me died. Nobody, you it's hard to talk about how painful the pandemic was when you know the stakes that, you know, were happening for some people. So this was really a business death and a passion death and a lifelong work death and a lot of things. So I just wanted to say that I really ⁓ value, you know, what people, what everyone went through. ⁓
Heather McG (02:09)
Yeah.
Shayna Ferm (02:20)
My personal story ⁓ was pretty devastating. And it was really just a product of bad luck and timing. ⁓ We had at that point, and we can kind of go back. I mean, I don't know how much of my career you even want to talk about, but ultimately we had created this show when we had babies. ⁓ We started putting it up, me and my business partner Tracy T in 2013.
By 2014, we were touring. It was ⁓ kind of like when everything was switching from Facebook to Instagram. Like this is how long ago. ⁓ Actually, Facebook was still pretty huge, but this is like how long ago. Like there wasn't necessarily a lot of content on YouTube or Facebook at the time for new moms. ⁓ And we created this live experience where we really just wanted to get people out of the house and laughing. ⁓
And it worked. mean, the first show that we did was at a local bar here in Denver. And by the second one, the bar owner was like, we've had people calling all day for tables of like 13, 14 women. And we were like, really? I mean, it was, we knew it because we were new moms and we knew that people needed that. But anyway, long story short, we went from a small bar to a bigger venue, to two venues a month in Denver, to touring.
to touring ourselves in every comedy club that we could in the country that had enough seats to make it worth our while to travel there just from a monetary perspective. There aren't a ton of clubs with over 300 seats, but we started filling those, filling the 500s. We went from that to music venues, because we could fit more moms in there. And then we, after five years on the road, decided we needed to do something to clone ourselves, because we were moms of young kids. We were traveling all the time.
So we grew our business, created two new casts, because it was never about us as people, it was about the moms at the show. So we had a cast out of Chicago, we had a cast out of LA. This is where it starts to get super sad, are you ready? We knew we were expanding, we had a team of 15 people. We were with William Morris Endeavor WME for booking, had grown and grown and grown. We had...
In January of 2020, a show in New York for a big Broadway producer who loved it, went and found us a space off Broadway. So we were gonna start an off Broadway run and an East Coast cast, because it was going so well with our Chicago and our LA cast. We had 56 shows booked just between March and June of 2020. We called our girls on the road on March 14th and told them they had to go home. ⁓ We lost.
everything that we built. We ⁓ still pay our investor every single month because we raised a lot of money. ⁓ And he was amazing. mean, he helped us our bait. You we were in so much bank debt at that point too, because we had, you know, we were running a business. know, we had, ⁓ we had to, you have to upfront market to
Heather McG (05:19)
Now.
Yeah.
Shayna Ferm (05:41)
get shows sold, you know? So upfront marketed that entire tour and we had a fall tour coming right after that. And we had just raised money. Like all of our dreams had just come true. So there was no reason that we couldn't put the money into marketing those shows. And they were, I think half of them were sold out and this was still March. So ⁓ everything fell apart. Everything fell apart. And the girls...
Heather McG (05:43)
Right.
Shayna Ferm (06:08)
who had really just started and really loved their jobs and were just feeling the power that the Pum and Dump show had, which was to just connect with moms and their stories and just validate their lives as new moms. ⁓ They were devastated. We were obviously devastated and felt the brunt. yeah, I'm like, this is just a sad, story. So then we...
Heather McG (06:25)
Thank
We're
going to have to take a moment to collect ourselves.
Shayna Ferm (06:40)
But we did have the podcast so our fans were able to like follow us we had a podcast called Banda Mothers podcast which we were lucky enough to work with Warner Brothers on but the podcast space right as COVID started became crazy saturated and we did well it wasn't it's just very hard for that to be sustainable when you just lost your jobs so and our jobs
and our team was all the live show. So yeah, so that was kind of the devastation. Was that your question? Like, how did it all end?
Heather McG (07:16)
Yeah, well,
yeah, it's like, well, what was the big thing that happened? It was huge. I didn't realize you were still having to pay investors back. But of course it makes sense because there are so many upfront costs in ⁓ live shows, live theater. And then if you can't put the show on, you got to pay it all back.
Shayna Ferm (07:33)
Yeah, I mean, it wasn't that, you we're not a nonprofit. It wasn't a donation. It was an investment into our company. like I said, and I guess I wasn't specific, our lead investor was kind enough to help us pay off the bank debt because that was going to ruin us. It was going to ruin our families, you know? So ⁓ he was kind enough to work out a plan with us. But, ⁓ you know, on top of the money stress, it was the stress of also being moms with young kids, now having to teach them at home.
Heather McG (07:50)
Yeah.
Shayna Ferm (08:02)
⁓ losing everything that we built and ⁓ obviously losing the, you know, the off Broadway show and everything that had just happened that January. ⁓ I mean, I remember in being in a cab after we saw the space, which was at 46th and eighth and it was downstairs was perfect. It was like this perfect space for like the bridge and tunnel moms to come in and have this amazing night. And we got in the cab to go to airport.
And I just remember breaking down into sobs and just thinking to myself, my God, after 20 years in the business and creating and performing and making and building something, all of my dreams like literally just came true. And Tracy was just nuzzling me in her bosom as she always does. And we just were like, holy shit, it happened. And then,
I remember, you know, two months later, waking up in the morning and just looking at my husband as the rest of the entire earth did, saying, I just was hoping when I woke up that it was a nightmare.
Heather McG (09:06)
Yeah, I mean, this has to be devastating because I, well, maybe, you know, maybe it's because, you know, I live adjacently to you in the creative world. Like, you know, what you're describing is the dream, right? To create a piece of art that resonates, that is meaningful, that matters to people, and it's working. And you can actually build something real with it, and then it gets snatched, right? At the last second, literally. Like, that's devastating.
Shayna Ferm (09:34)
And
the eight years at that point of building it had been.
You know, we worked really hard and we struggled really hard because what happened during that time was that YouTube became crazy and Facebook became crazy and other mom comics who really were invested in video content did really well and we loved them. There was nothing. I mean, we're fans. Like there was not a competitive, you know, moms helping moms like, you know, a hundred percent no notes, like keep going. Um,
But what happened was those people started to tour in our tour in our same range. It would be like we would like show up at a venue that we like blood, sweat and tears to sell because we weren't video content makers. And we have made videos, but we spent so much work and time in our full time job was doing this live production that without help really, you know, that. ⁓
Heather McG (10:23)
Bye.
Shayna Ferm (10:35)
we would get to these venues and we would see these posters up for like these other like two moms coming in and they would have pulled out and they had, they were coming on buses with like huge things on the sides. And so it wasn't that we didn't also sell and do a good job. It was just that we were like working so hard and had to work so much harder because we didn't start with video. ⁓ And we weren't able to reach.
Heather McG (10:41)
Yeah.
All
Shayna Ferm (11:02)
as many people as they were and that's just the truth of doing. mean, you should see how many people tour the comedy clubs now who are just YouTube stars or just. It's wild. It's wild. And that was the transition happening. But what was, what really happened was that we showed up at those clubs and they didn't even have projectors or screens and the GMs, you know, almost I'd say 97 % of them men would be like, who the hell are these moms who think they're funny and what are they asking from us from a tech.
Heather McG (11:11)
that is why.
Shayna Ferm (11:29)
perspective and ours, was a music show too. we had like, you know, we had, oh my God, had $4,000 of merch sitting in my basement. have almost $10,000 of equipment and things that we had had to buy. And when we sent those casts home, we were sending home tech directors who were traveling with the women. We had an operations director. All of this was built by us. So it was a lot of struggle and which was great. That's way to be entrepreneurs, right?
It was a lot of work and it was a lot of struggle and all of that had culminated into it finally working. ⁓ And then just completely falling apart.
Heather McG (12:09)
Yeah. Yeah. mean,
I have never, you know, I work in small business for my, you know, regular job supporting small businesses and there's no such thing as a small business owner that doesn't basically kill themselves to get it up and running and going. It is so much work. I have literally never met an entrepreneur or small business owner that it doesn't require so much. Like when people are starting, you know, like sometimes you hear people are like, you know, I always thought I would work for myself and that would be so great. I'm like, it is, but it is also a harder.
It's not easier, it's harder, you know?
Shayna Ferm (12:41)
It was hard, but it's like no matter what I've ever done, I worked that hard and so does Tracy and we got so lucky being each other's partners. And so I can't really like complain about it because it was so our passion, you know, and it's, we're still that way. But yeah, it was definitely one of those things where you didn't want to feel sorry for yourself, but it was a strain.
Heather McG (12:56)
Yeah.
Shayna Ferm (13:09)
And also one of the things that as we look back and we've both moved on to other careers, like we're grateful for not doing it anymore because I can't believe we did it with babe. mean, baby, it's like we would get after the show, people would be like, how old are your kids? And I'd be like two and three. I mean, how it's like.
Heather McG (13:31)
working on solid foods, actually.
Shayna Ferm (13:33)
I
mean, someone's home. ⁓ What we would do is, this is also nuts. I can't even believe we did this. We would fly out. So we got better door deals as new viewers on weeknights. So we would do like a Wednesday night in, let's just say like Omaha. ⁓ Big Omaha, Funny Bone fan, by the way. Club run by a woman. All the clubs run by women are the best clubs.
Heather McG (13:36)
You
Okay.
I just
have to say people love Omaha. Everyone I know who has ever spent time in Omaha, who's from Omaha or who has worked in Omaha, I've never been there so I don't know what the deal is but I feel like everyone I know that has been through Omaha has a very, they just say it's the best. I mean I think Lady Gaga put it in a song.
Shayna Ferm (14:22)
And it feels like a mini Denver. so it's like a lot of moms that we could really relate to We actually there are so many cities that you wouldn't have expected us to just love the moms what we did. ⁓ Yes, Omaha shout out to Omaha, but we would fly out Wednesday ⁓ After we dropped the kids at school, we would do the show Wednesday night We would wake up Thursday morning fly home and be there for pickup So we did this every week and sometimes it was a Wednesday Thursday ⁓
Heather McG (14:32)
you
Shayna Ferm (14:52)
for a while, we started doing weekends, not for years. mean, the first couple of years were all weeknights. The weekends were easier because our husbands were around. ⁓ But those weeknights, we had, I had ⁓ a babysitter basically pick them up or a friend would pick them up. And then when my husband was done with work, he would put them to bed and then get them to school in the morning. But then we were back and we were, Tracy was making frozen meals for.
her husband for the one night. I mean, he's totally capable and awesome, but she's very good at preparing. I was like, order, go to McDonald's. I don't care.
Heather McG (15:21)
Yeah.
Just I need everyone
to be alive when I get back.
Shayna Ferm (15:28)
Yeah, yeah, it was wild. Totally crazy. my... yeah, go ahead.
Heather McG (15:33)
I was saying I have a serious question, but first I do want to mark you were talking about some videos you made I have to okay I have to mark one video you made many years ago that I just want you to know that like it has to have been at least ten years ago I don't know exactly when you published it, but it was at least ten years ago I you might know which one I'm about to say because I was like my god that is so true because a lot of the work that I Saw you put out from the pump and dump show was a lot of like so true
You know like my god, that is how it is You know and the finding way to laugh at like the disaster of it one of them you did a music video about you were so excited to have a hotel room by yourself I said that's all my mom friends on a regular basis. I was like, yes, I cannot I need to do this It sounds so it just makes me laugh that like that really is like the things as a mom that make you happy are so stupid Like literally it is just the dream to be able to go to a hotel room
Shayna Ferm (16:28)
No, nothing.
Heather McG (16:29)
Hold the remote, watch what
you wanna watch, go to bed when you wanna go to bed, and nobody talks to you or touches you.
Shayna Ferm (16:35)
Mm-hmm hundred percent. It's still a dream, especially now teenagers, but back then it was like That I mean just sleeping diagonal nobody waking you Ordering room service is still one of my favorite things in the world to do. It's Just yeah, that was it. I was and that was a fun video like again. It's hard to make video content like kudos to the people who especially at the time were
giving moms that kind of joy because being able to sit there while breastfeeding and see something that makes you feel validated and like, my God, that's so true. We weren't the only ones doing it and it was really, really needed. It's still needed. There's still people that I follow who do such a great job. And yeah, that was a fun video, but a huge project in the middle of touring, you know?
Heather McG (17:29)
top of everything else. Okay, so after a few years, know, the vaccine came out, as we all know, we were all there. Vaccine came out, things started to, you know, we started to leave our house again. Was there any part of you that considered restarting your business?
Shayna Ferm (17:46)
So we did try for fall. We actually got a fall tour, started booking it and we're getting closer to the first date and Omicron came. I know if you remember that. was, yeah. So it put the real like last nail in the, in the, I don't know what's the word, nail in the.
Heather McG (18:02)
Yeah.
Shayna Ferm (18:14)
What did I say? It was the last nail. I don't know what it meant. ⁓
Heather McG (18:15)
and they'll love.
Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to think of
like a theatrical or show term that it might refer to. It was ripping up the last ticket.
Shayna Ferm (18:24)
Thank
Yeah, it was just like, God. So that was, we weren't able to do that. So we canceled that, which was sad because we broke the hearts of the moms who were traveling for us. And that was when we just kind of went full ham into the podcast and ⁓ we're just like, well, this has to be it because we cannot get this show back up. So yes, but because of the costs and because of how much money we owe still, we... ⁓
I mean there was no way and people ask that question a lot. ⁓ Like don't you want to get it back up and it just was impossible. Yeah.
Heather McG (19:08)
sure that
was a tough moment.
Shayna Ferm (19:12)
It was it was tougher. It was actually tougher when we ended the podcast because I think we just knew that it was like the actually, you know, it's interesting. I forgot about this because I've blocked it all. Dark tunnels of the. We did a mother's so every Mother's Day, we had done like a gigantic show here in Denver at the Paramount with for 1500 moms with a dance party afterwards, and it was a huge, huge deal. And we had actually for 2020 had
Heather McG (19:24)
Hahaha!
Shayna Ferm (19:42)
the big venues already booked for three different cities. We had Chicago and LA and here. ⁓ And so we ended up getting hired by a streaming platform that had kind of come up during COVID to do a live stream show at the Bluebird. ⁓ We could only have 40 people in the audience. It was so wild. ⁓ And so that we had worked on and that was one of those moments. And the reason I bring this up is because like,
Heather McG (20:04)
You
Shayna Ferm (20:12)
the last podcast where Tracy and I kind of finally, I think knew we weren't gonna get to do this anymore. that night, that actually it wasn't the night of the show. was the rehearsal for that show at the Bluebird. I was on stage with my guitar under the spotlight and I just started to cry while I was singing. And I don't know if this ever happened to you Heather, but like I was crying so hard and not knowing why, like I just,
I had to stop and I kind of went backstage and I was like, like curled up in the back of this theater, just everything came out, like just crying and crying. it, truthfully, it ended up being the last live show that we ever did. And I think I knew, like I think I just knew in my bones that I wasn't gonna get to do that again.
finally.
Heather McG (21:07)
weird
how I think sometimes our subconscious and our bodies, I mean, that a lot of my emotions start in my body, like I will, like before I understand what's going on before my brain understands what's going on, I will get sick, I will not feel good, I will be devastatingly depressed. You know, and it just like takes a while to figure it out for my brain to catch up. And I think that's really interesting how
Shayna Ferm (21:18)
Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (21:35)
I don't, know, I'm an atheist, but I think there are just certain things in life that like, it's like a spiritual thing. It's like your body knows, your spirit knows, your heart knows, even though your brain hasn't figured out what's going on yet. It's weird.
Shayna Ferm (21:50)
Yeah, it was really weird. It was like an out of body body experience where, ⁓ and our amazing director, Kristin Goodman, you know, was, we were talking about.
Heather McG (22:00)
Is that the Kristin Goodman I know or was that? Okay,
we went to college with Kristin too.
Shayna Ferm (22:05)
Yeah, the Chris and Goodman was our director and she was up here rehearsing that show and with us and ⁓ Saw that breakdown and it and it was it was like my body knew but you know It makes me think of when I was in high school and I auditioned for This is so ridiculous. I auditioned for Audrey in Little Chappell for us at my high school ⁓ And I remember
Heather McG (22:23)
haha
Shayna Ferm (22:30)
at the audition, not being able to sing the song, I just started bawling. Like I couldn't do it. And I don't know why, cause I'm a really good singer and like, I should have gotten that part. And I ended up, I didn't get the part. They actually gave it to a freshman. was like this big rebellion of the theater teachers, like, know, all that drama. And I think my body knew that I wasn't gonna get it and I couldn't even make it. So it's the only other time I can actually remember just having like a crying fit where like something happens. Like my body knew. So weird.
Heather McG (22:43)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Shayna Ferm (23:02)
Yeah.
Heather McG (23:04)
I'm thinking about that. You're also making me think about
Peter Pan, the Peter Pan show that we both did in college. I don't know why it's making me think of that maybe because that particular production was full of drama and crying.
Shayna Ferm (23:14)
So much drama. was a hip hop dancing Indian, which I think you would probably, I don't know if they still call them Indians in the Peter Pan way. So many problems. My name was Spree. We were named after candy. Remember that? Yeah.
Heather McG (23:28)
That's right. That's right.
Okay, I'm going way down the rabbit hole, but just for context, ⁓ at the theater school, Shay and I were in a production of Peter Pan and at DePaul, they did children's play series, which were very well done, actually. They were very well done, but I think as students there, they were not our favorite to do necessarily all the time, but Peter Pan was a lot of fun. It actually was really cute, ⁓ but it also included, I think at least half.
Shayna Ferm (23:33)
I know.
Heather McG (23:56)
half the populate student population because it was such a big show and so that meant there were a ton of shenanigans at all times and it was just like a total I'm like I don't even know how to describe it a lot of drama a lot of crying a lot of laughing but it was just out of control all right so back on back on track here all right you have recently so this has led to a new beginning in your life you and I was so happy to see that you were doing this you have recently embarked on a new beginning as an author so you are funneling all of this into a new play
How did that transition start for you?
Shayna Ferm (24:29)
so funny because it's no one is more surprised than me. ⁓ So like just to catch up where we were. we're crying in a feeding position during COVID. ⁓ So Tracy, my partner with the Pomp and Dump Shell, we've been friends since the eighth grade. I feel like she's my lifelong partner. ⁓ She
Heather McG (24:39)
Yes. Yes.
Shayna Ferm (24:52)
Pivots to start teaching moms how to microdose mushrooms with a company called moms on mushrooms that becomes wildly explode it like explodes in popularity ⁓ She's on the Today Show. She's on Dr. Phil. She's like killing it and I'm I've always been like my side gig Because I was a bartender and this and that when I was an actor in New York
ended up one of my bartending clients hired me as a receptionist at a design firm and the art directors took me under their wing and taught me how to design stuff. So then I ended up working for a PR firm as a designer. And so it's always been my like side gig. So when we had band of mothers, I was always the creative director. So my point is I became Tracy's creative director and I started learning, like leaning, learning and leaning, ⁓ leaning into that because I was like, I don't.
know what else to do with myself. And so that became my day job. And it's great because it's still creative, but I was really enjoying being creative for other people. Nothing was my baby anymore, right? So like, even Moms on Mushrooms that I care deeply about is Tracy's baby. Like she's the one that has to worry about her stuff and her, you know, bottom line.
my clients, you know, I'm a hand holder and I'm helping people with their marketing and their websites and all of this stuff, but I, it's not mine. And so that felt really good. It felt like actually really good. And I said to myself, I never want to sell another ticket. And that was like the phrase. And when I said that, and it was probably helped by my courtesy.
I was like, never want to sell another ticket. And that's a metaphor for so many things, right? Like I've been selling tickets since I was 22 years old and first got to New York and started writing comedy and putting on shows and producing. And I just never, ever wanted to do again. And in order to not sell tickets, you have to not do something creative for yourself. ⁓
I guess marketing your own business in a way is selling tickets, but I was just getting so many referrals and it was just going so smoothly that that didn't feel challenging to me. So I was really enjoying it. ⁓ and then strangely enough, it's funny. This is a podcast. I'm like, I'm talking so much, but I think I'm supposed to be talking. Okay.
Heather McG (27:21)
Yes, yes. It's
okay. You should talk about yourself. This is scenario where it's okay to talk away about yourself and your feelings.
Shayna Ferm (27:25)
I'm
sorry. I'm like, I'm sorry, not sorry. Okay. So what happened was I was being visited by another person from college, my friend Jason, and somehow he must've like rambled loose some ideas in me about something. And I had this dream of this story. So I was like, huh, I think I want to do something with this for myself, just for myself.
And I don't know if it should be a screenplay and I'm a big reader. So it's like, I don't know if I should write a, just write a novel. Like I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this, but I love this story. I've like all three acts in my brain. Like I am going to tell the story and I love the idea. And I talked to Kristen Goodman and she was like, well, this is how you figure out if you should write a movie or not. Cause she's a screenwriter. And then I was just like, I don't know what to do with it, but whatever it's not going to have an outcome. I'm not going to think about the outcome for the first time.
And then I realized that I just built a website for a friend of mine who was a client who is a book coach for women in midlife who are becoming authors. I know, but this is how I work. Like I literally do work for people and never think about how it would apply to me. Like I worked at this site for...
a wonderful social coach who helps kids who are neurodivergent. And then like after it's already done, I was like, ⁓ I should call her about my neurodivergent.
Heather McG (29:02)
Yeah, I think that is, you know, I've done that with this podcast quite a bit where I've gone out and like found guests and booked guests. And then like that's happened a few times. I sat down and didn't like, ⁓ my friend has a really good story. I shouldn't ask her.
Shayna Ferm (29:17)
It's so
funny and I feel like as a designer, I tend to separate, like I'm looking at things from such a like bird's eye analytical view that, and it's probably good that I'm not relating myself to it, but I called up my, you know, this who now became my book coach, Heather, her name's Heather as well. And I was like, hey, want to work with me out of this idea? And I kind of, maybe I'll try to write it. And she convinced me and so did my friends and my husband.
Heather McG (29:28)
Yeah.
Shayna Ferm (29:45)
and anyone I'd talked to about it, that I have been a writer my whole life. I just didn't particularly write novels, but I've been writing comedy, I've been writing plays, I've been writing, writing, writing content for my clients. I've been writing, and I'm a good writer my whole life. And I just didn't consider myself a writer. So I start working with Heather. I'm like, no outcome, no outcome, no.
I will never think about outcome. In fact, I said to her, I'm just going to put this book, I'm going to read it like as a podcast for free and just let people like listen to it. And she's like, sure you are, you know, yeah, no one wants to be like, that's not your personality like at all. But
Heather McG (30:25)
They're like, okay.
Well, I
also have to say people that are really good at those like coaching types of jobs, we know they're good when they're like, okay, why don't we just put that aside and we're gonna come back to that, okay? Like they know, don't say no, they're just like, we're not gonna, maybe we don't have to decide right now, but we'll just, okay.
Shayna Ferm (30:40)
Yes.
100%. 100%. And it's so funny because like, I feel like I've spent the last, and even before the Pumb and Gump show ended or Band of Mothers ended, was really, basically since I turned 40, I was really doing some good work on myself. Like really understand, you know, like who I am and what it is I, how I work, how I do things, like Enneagram for example, number three, you know, when I realized that like,
things became so clear because I've always defined my self-worth with success. And I know how fun that is, ⁓ but it's just a thing. So now that I'm aware of it, I can do better. So it really went into this writing process with like, don't be a three. Don't be three. Don't try to make something for everyone. Don't try to like make money with this. Don't try anything but like telling the story.
And I think I did a pretty good job, but what happened was I started to really love my story. And other people started to love my story, meaning like my coach was like, I don't think you realize that this is something you're really natural at. Like this is my notes. You're taking them so easily and naturally, which again comes from a life of creative. I just heard you talking to us on your Instagram. Like when you've led a creative life, you take good notes. You take notes well.
Heather McG (32:05)
Hmm.
Shayna Ferm (32:19)
⁓ and I started to find that writing felt like the same muscles as when I was an actor because I'm playing a role and when I'm writing first person, I'm experimenting. It's almost like rehearsal process acting where you're trying things. ⁓ you're feeling brilliant one moment and horrible the next, like all of those muscles started like coming back.
⁓ muscles that obviously I used in the Pummon Up show too, and even podcasting and, and just feeling that again, but in this other way was so exhilarating that I started to be like, well, this is all I want to do. So I became a three. I just started like doing it all the time and feeling so forth in succeeding at it. ⁓ and next thing I know I'm querying, ⁓
Heather McG (33:06)
Thank
Yeah.
Shayna Ferm (33:17)
And next thing I know, I have an agent. And next thing I know, I'm writing my second novel. And ⁓ I'm imagining my future and this is it. And it's crazy. Because a year ago, I think I had the idea a year ago. This is not typical. This is very, very not typical at all.
Heather McG (33:33)
It's fast.
It's fast. Well, in good news, you are going to be able to ⁓ record your book as a podcast for an audio book. So you will still achieve your dream.
Shayna Ferm (33:48)
I don't know if that was a dream. think it was probably to not have to try to sell it. And the other thing is like, I have so many friends who are amazing indie authors and self-published. So I'm not anti self-published. I think because I have the time and the, really don't have like pressure on me because I'm, just, I don't know. I, I don't know what it is. I just am like, I'm going to try Chad.
publishing, I'm just going to see what happens. Also, when you write women's fiction genre, it's different than like a mystery series or a thriller series. So, or even like, even fantasy, even romance, like women's fiction, more like general fiction or upmarket fiction is a little bit more difficult for people to find on its own. So I'm like, well, I'll give it a shot. My agent is such an amazing believer in me and I can't even, I'm so lucky I found her. So.
I'm just like, let's see what happens.
Heather McG (34:47)
Do you know? Yeah, yeah, well, someone said that to me, you because I'm working on a book and they're like, can you start calling yourself an author? was like, I don't I don't know. I don't know if it comes from like theater world, because like theater, while I love it so much and there's so much good to it, it is also abusive. It's like, I don't know. I don't feel like I've earned that yet. And they're like, you have just say it, practice saying it and you can do it.
Shayna Ferm (34:49)
But here you call me an offer. It's like, what? Who?
Yeah.
Well, there's a lot of similarities which I really like was resistant to like going into the business side because I knew it was going to be similar I think. ⁓ And see these keep falling down just you're undressing.
Heather McG (35:31)
I anyone who's
watching video you're gonna get a real treat today because I'm having an allergy attack and I'm gonna you know carefully edit all these shots out but Shae's having to watch me wipe my nose with my Kleenex and Shae's straps on her clothes are falling off. It's very funny.
Shayna Ferm (35:43)
Thank
I'm undressing for those of you just very very 47 year old boobs happening
Heather McG (35:48)
Yeah, there's a strip show going on for anyone who's interested.
Oh,
that could be the name of a video or a 47 year old strip show.
Shayna Ferm (36:03)
Somebody's into it.
Heather McG (36:04)
Yeah, there's something
for everyone. now something you were talking about, and I think this is interesting because I relate to it too. The idea of, you know, we're talking about, you know, I think it's impossible for Shay and I to be having a conversation for creativity and creative process to not figure in. But you talked about how, you know, you were going to try this project as something that was just for you without an outcome in mind. And I have a question for you about that.
but also sharing a story in that. I'm a photographer. I'm actually really good at it. I've been published and I find a lot of joy in it. It's really fun for me. And there was a point in my life where was like, I'm gonna make a business out of this. I'm gonna take clients and I turn into a business and it was actually working, but it made me hate photography because I was doing it for somebody else. I wasn't doing it for me. And the big lesson I walked away from is you don't need to monetize.
everything you love or that you're good at. ⁓ So I'm really curious about, that is a switch, like cause a lot of creative projects, you have an outcome in mind. You're trying to achieve something in particular with this. It's interesting that you started that way and then it, it now that there will be an outcome, but that wasn't the goal in the beginning. Can you kind of talk about the difference there and like, do you think it actually got you to a better place or what is the lesson that you pull out of doing it differently in that
Shayna Ferm (37:02)
Yeah. Yeah.
You know, I think that a lot of, this is again, like the woo woo 40 plus me, I'm trying to take everything as a lesson, right? Like I and Tracy too, like we learned so much doing what we did and everything we did before that led to the show and Band of Mothers. And so learning how I work and what, ⁓
Heather McG (37:36)
You
Shayna Ferm (37:57)
like keeping my head about me as I go into this new process, I think is the lesson there. So I can sit there and say like, I don't want an outcome. I would just want to do this for me, but I'm always gonna, and I think most creative people want their creativity to be out in the world somewhere. If they've made something that they love, right? So I feel like keeping my head about me is only happening
because I started by saying, you'll be happiest without an outcome. Now I know I want an outcome. I'd love for it to be, to reach people, but how can I do that without making myself crazy? How can I be working on this second book ⁓ without the first one even in people's hands yet, you know? And it's because making the second book is, writing is what makes me happy. Like doing that is what makes me happy. So.
I think just trusting the process, I have the word trust tattooed on my arm. ⁓ I'm such a different person than I was 10 years ago in the middle of the Pum and Dump show craziness. And so how can I really like understand that I'm always gonna fall into these patterns because they're so ingrained in me, ⁓ but recognizing them and moving forward creatively, like just with a better mindset about it.
It's gonna be hard. I'm not gonna be great at it. You know, I wish I didn't care about outcome. really, really do. But I do, you know?
Heather McG (39:28)
Yeah.
Yeah,
I just think it's, I think what's interesting about it, and I think this is a lesson that anyone can apply to too, it's like, what is making you happy? Like what is, like what instead, like is it the outcome that's gonna make you happy, or is it the act of it that's gonna make you happy? And I personally, a lot of times you can't control the outcome. I can only control if I did my best, if I put my all into it, if I made something that I like. I can control that.
I can't control if someone's gonna buy it. can't control if someone, know, what other people are gonna say or do. But I think if you think of it in terms of what you can control and prioritizing what you want it to be, and then after that, you just have to let it fly. Because you can't control it. You can't control what happens after that. And I don't think that we should.
Shayna Ferm (40:17)
No, but you can be smart and ⁓ thoughtful about what you put out and how you put it out there. Obviously there's marketing involved in everything now, no matter if you're at a big five publisher or not, you're gonna have to tell people what you're doing. ⁓ But more than like what you can control, it's more like not trying to make something for everyone. And that's something that I heard on this podcast with Seth Godin, who's like written a million books. ⁓
It's like, not everyone likes Taylor Swift, you know, but she sells millions and millions and millions of albums of music. And, ⁓ I'm, I can't possibly write a book that everyone's going to think is good. I mean, there's just, that's so impossible. And not only that, it's not for everyone. It's specifically for women and it's specifically
it specifically will hit for women of a certain age. And so I have to know that even in that subgroup, there will be people who will be like, yeah, it wasn't for me because I read books and I'm like, yeah, I love that one. So it's letting go of this, you know, again, selling the tickets because the only people who are going to come, you're going to be able to see
are like a really specific small group of people. ⁓ And that you might have some control over by being, by really making something Rick Rubin style like that you believe in that you think is good. ⁓ But just recognizing truly and trusting that the people who are meant to connect with it are going to connect with it.
Heather McG (41:55)
Right.
Yeah, yes, I, you know, that's something that is really driven home to me through my creative life is that quite often the right people come together with the right message at the right time. Like somehow, again, I'm an atheist, but this is just the case. The universe tends to work things out. And I think there is a degree of trusting that what is meant for you will find you. The people you need in your life, you find each other.
Like somehow that's just how it works, you know, and I can't explain it, but I know that has definitely been true in my life. ⁓ I don't know, I think it's interesting. I think it's a wonderful part of being a human. All right, so for you, I have a point of view that everyone's creative because, and it's okay, you can disagree with me. I'm not setting this up for you to agree with me. This is just like how I feel and interested how you feel about it. So I often hear people say things like, I'm just not creative.
Shayna Ferm (43:04)
Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (43:04)
That's something
I feel like you just run into. And there's this idea that creativity has to be art. It has to be painting. It has to be music. It has to be writing. ⁓ Whereas my feeling is creativity is something deeper. It's an expression of what it means to be human. really believe a scientist can be like science, I think can be creative. Math can be creative. it's like these human expressions are what creativity is. And it's really, what does that mean to you? It's an expression of our humanity.
What are your thoughts on what it means to be creative or what creativity is? And you can disagree with me.
Shayna Ferm (43:40)
I think that it's a muscle. So I think ⁓ it's conditioning. So I think that if it's a muscle that you've never used, it's a weaker muscle. You may be more insecure about it. If it's a muscle you used and you were criticized, easy to criticize someone's creativity, ⁓ you know, when you're insecure about your own, ⁓ you know, it's how we grow up. It's what phones are doing to our society. It's all these things that influence this
Heather McG (43:54)
Yeah.
Shayna Ferm (44:10)
creative muscle. ⁓ I believe that it is the more you use it, the more you will use it. ⁓ And I unlike, you may disagree with me with this, but I feel like everyone's like, anyone can sing, just take singing lessons. ⁓
Heather McG (44:28)
my god, I hate that. no, that's
like craft is different. Craft is different. Not everybody has craft.
Shayna Ferm (44:35)
Yeah,
that's where I more agree that like, you know, or, you know, or where I would say like people get that wrong. ⁓ But I
Heather McG (44:45)
Yes, that's the
part where people go left and in the wrong direction.
Shayna Ferm (44:52)
But I do feel like the more you use a creative muscle no matter what it is Even if it's just problem-solving like you're saying in science or that's creativity problem-solving is creativity I've always considered myself a creative problem solver even with my kids. It's like I Can't do this or this isn't gonna work out. Okay. Well, how can I solve? Solve for X like how do I I will think of 20 ways to do it but
Heather McG (45:15)
haha
Shayna Ferm (45:19)
⁓ My husband, who's a little bit more of like a, well, he's a lawyer, so he's very like rational thinking that his brain doesn't work quite the same way. It needs like proof and a certain pattern, you know? So like, you know, his brain doesn't necessarily always go to the creative problem solving, even though he's a good problem solver. So again, it's the muscle. I've been using that muscle my whole life.
in different ways. And that's why, you know, when you were reading my bio, like I do say I'm a lifelong creative because even as a kid, even it's just always been a part of my DNA, but I do feel like everyone has it. Maybe I was just more ignored and bored as a child.
Heather McG (46:00)
It's how you, yeah, like I wasn't allowed to watch TV as a kid and that meant I wrote a lot of books and made a lot of plays. like, so when you don't get, when you're bored and there's other things you can't do, that's what you end up doing.
Shayna Ferm (46:11)
And I was only allowed to watch TV as a child. I feel like all my creativity came from watching stories.
Heather McG (46:18)
Got it, got it.
I know there's a lot of writers that are going to listen to this. Can you say a little bit about how you approached writing your book? I know you're going out on sub soon, I would imagine. So what did the process of writing your book look like?
Shayna Ferm (46:34)
Thanks for asking that. This is so fun to be able to answer it because again, like a year ago, I don't know what I would have said. I highly, highly recommend if you're interested in a certain genre, finding a coach because for my first foray, like now for my next book, I've been able to use the things I learned from her. And so they basically say that you're either a plotter or a pantser, right? You either fly by the seat of your pants as you write, which a lot of people do.
Heather McG (47:00)
Hmm?
Shayna Ferm (47:03)
One of my favorite authors talks about how she ⁓ learns about her characters as she's writing them. And I think that's a beautiful process. ⁓ My process was from my coach, Heather Garbo, Garbo Book Coaching, if anyone is interested in writing any sort of women's fiction, that's what she works on ⁓ as we learned women who want to become authors in midlife. ⁓ And it was a really interesting process, which was a lot, like I said,
like being an actor where I really learn about my main character because for women's fiction, it's all about the arc of the character ⁓ and really that one woman's story. So we dig in by figuring out the point. What is the point of your story? What are you going to be saying when someone closes this book at the end? And having that as a North Star has been so helpful. And for my first book, it took me a while to really
know how to say it because I knew what it felt like but I couldn't even as a writer put it into a sentence. ⁓ And so that becomes kind of your private North Star as you do everything else. So my process back to your question was to really do a lot of preparatory work to understand who I'm writing about and that included ⁓ all the story beats kind of based on the Save the Cat structure so that I had all of that in mind so then I was
Heather McG (48:04)
you
Shayna Ferm (48:29)
For me, it was like filling in as I wrote. And I think that's why everything poured out so quickly because it was really prepared. Now with the next book, and I say, I almost said books because I started at number two and then switched completely to entirely new number two. So I've now been through that preparatory process two different times. It wasn't as, it didn't pour out of me as easily because I mean, again, like I dreamt.
Heather McG (48:43)
Yeah.
Shayna Ferm (48:57)
that story, the first one.
Heather McG (48:59)
Yeah, sometimes
it's like bolt of lightning, you know, that comes to you and then other things, they come a different way. It's more like polishing a stone.
Shayna Ferm (49:07)
And I didn't abandon the second one the first second one what I did was have another bolt of lightning and I knew because the first one was a bolt of lightning that when I got this bolt of lightning even though I'd already started the other one I was like 15,000 words in and I had all that preparatory work I have the plots I had you know, I plot points everything Dark Knight of the soul like everything planned out. ⁓ it came to me like lightning
It just was a synergy of ideas again. And I went, that's it. And I also think that I am learning as a writer that ⁓ writing what you know is so true. So it's like the oldest line in the book, right? Like, write what you know, write what you know. But I really, when this newest idea came to me, I know so much about this world I'm creating.
Why not write about it? It's fiction, but I know what it's like to be a comedy writer in the early 2000s in New York City. And I'm going to use that for my character. Her story is not going to be my story, but I know that life and I know what that was like. And I think a lot of people might be interested in it. There goes my marketing brain. ⁓ And then I found a way to overlap with the first one, which will be interesting. So I think it was just the lightning strikes really helped.
Heather McG (50:19)
think people will buy this one.
Shayna Ferm (50:29)
Process wise, I'm definitely a plotter. Like I need to have this thing that I fill in. And I haven't really yet tried to pants it. So we'll see.
Heather McG (50:42)
on. I'm excited to see where goes. ⁓ Okay, so as we're wrapping up here, what would you like taking the bird's eye view? What are some of the biggest lessons or surprises that this ending leading to a new beginning have taught you?
Shayna Ferm (50:43)
Yeah.
It's funny you asked because I was going to say this earlier and I forgot. I feel like now looking back at what we went through with the show and we had an app and it was like this with the business. I feel like I'm not even sure how sustainable it would have been. I'm sure we would have made it work, but I'm actually grateful.
because our kids were getting older, we were getting, you know, maybe in over our head raising all that money. I mean, I don't with three casts and four casts at that point, it would have been with the East Coast cast. Like, I almost just feel like as tragic as it was, ⁓ what I've come to and maybe what I needed to come to in order to heal myself is just realizing that this is what it was supposed to be. ⁓
It wasn't ideal, still owing money is not ideal. ⁓ But we were working ourselves to the bone and life just feels very different now. And our kids need us in a different way as they're older and teenagers. Like it's very different from when they were little. I could leave them and come home and just feed them and snuggle with them and give them, they needed different things. Now it's so much emotional ⁓ need from.
teenagers and I just, don't know, I feel like what was supposed to transition transitioned in the most horrible way.
Heather McG (52:39)
in
the, you know, that did involve some crying on the floor in a fetal position, but that is how it goes with those types of endings.
Shayna Ferm (52:44)
Yeah,
yeah, it's weird. And when I took over our Instagram account because it was dead for five years and I'm gonna need to sell books and which, know, don't get me started on social media. Even though only a very small amount of the large amount of people we have following us are even seeing my posts yet because I just started taking it over. Right away I got people writing me DMs just thanking me for
Heather McG (52:57)
Hahaha!
Shayna Ferm (53:14)
the show and the podcast all those years ago. So like I can always take with me how meaningful it was. And now those same moms like are going to love my book. It's, it's for them too, you know? So I think, you know, it's an interesting, it's like a piece. Like I feel like now this transition, I feel very at peace and I don't know if I, you know,
I don't know what's going to happen with the writing. I'd love for it to be like picture myself at 75 with my laptop in a gazebo on an island. Also, that's part of that picture.
Heather McG (53:51)
where you will have sold millions of books, but then you can buy a few different homes in beautiful locations for you to go visit.
Shayna Ferm (53:56)
I'm sorry.
Yeah, no.
Heather McG (54:00)
We're going to
dream that dream for you too. Not only creative success, but we're going to say you're going to sell millions of
Shayna Ferm (54:06)
Walk around manifestation, right? That's what you. ⁓
Heather McG (54:08)
Yeah, yeah,
I'm gonna double down on that for you. ⁓ Well, thank you so much for, well, before we move on, just to comment on what you just said, know, something I think is interesting, and I think every single person that's been on this podcast has spontaneously said some version of what you just said. And what I think is fascinating, you know, like we've had a few podcast episodes that maybe they're not about the most serious things, but a lot of them have been, they could have died.
Shayna Ferm (54:11)
Thank you. ⁓
Heather McG (54:38)
Like it's like that serious, like they had cancer fighting for their life or they were horrifically abused or, you know, some really awful things have happened to them. And something that I just think is, I mean, it's fascinating. We were laughing and smiling and, you know, they, they said some version of what you said of that. were grateful. They said, knowing that like, you know, and this is not about toxic positivity, like
It's not acting like this stuff was great, because trust me, it wasn't. Getting divorced is not great. Getting really sick, not great. Losing your whole business that you worked so hard for, not great. The beginning can be great. The thing that happens afterwards that can be great. it brings home to me that two things can be true at the same time. Something can be really awful, and it can also lead to something really amazing and beautiful and good at the same time.
Well Shay, thank you so much for being here and sharing your story today. This was so fun. Where can people find you if they want to work with you or hear more from you and find out when your book is getting published so they can buy it?
Shayna Ferm (55:45)
Thank you. ⁓ And just to say too, like I'm so inspired by you and your constant creative life. So keep it up and supporting people, especially like I said at the beginning, like, you know, a lot worse things have happened to human beings, especially like you said, the people on your podcast, but thank you for exploring these stories and mine too, and validating the rebirth because it really is like.
part of my story and I just appreciate the opportunity to tell it. So thank you. ⁓ So people can follow me at Shana Firm-Writes on Instagram. And that's basically where you'll get all of the updates. As soon as I have updates in a book to sell, that is where you will find out all the things. ⁓ It is the one place I'm gonna try to like put my effort in the most. I do have a sub stack also at Shana Firm-Writes. ⁓
but I'm finding that as I write a second novel and go into submissions and all of the things ⁓ that I'm not keeping it up as much, but if you are on Substack, please follow me so that you'll get the newsletter and all that kind of stuff.
Heather McG (56:58)
and I'll make sure I will link all of these things in the show notes so you don't have to rewind and re-listen to this. I'll put it in there so that everybody can find it and link out to it. Thank you to everyone who's listening to the Happily Never After today, especially all of you who are on your own journey and your new start. We hope you have a great week.