Conversion Therapy Dropout with Timothy Schraeder Rodriguez
SUBSCRIBE ON
Apple Podcasts │ Spotify │ YouTube │ Substack
Description
Host Heather McG sits down with debut author Timothy Schraeder Rodriguez, who survived eight years of conversion therapy then began his empowering journey to healing and belonging. He discusses the challenges and revelations that led him to co-found an organization that helps queer individuals find affirming faith communities. Timothy's story, featured in major outlets like NBC and Vice, is a testament to resilience and courage. Tune in to hear about his upcoming book, Conversion Therapy Dropout, and his ongoing advocacy for queer people of faith. Don't miss this transformative conversation about faith, identity, and how to take the steps needed to live one's truth.
About Timothy Schraeder Rodriguez
Timothy Schraeder Rodriguez spent almost a decade in gay conversion therapy—all while working behind the scenes at some of the most influential Evangelical Christian megachurches. After embracing his identity as a gay Christian and stepping away from church work, he co-founded Church Clarity, an organization that helps queer people find affirming faith communities. His story and work have been featured by NBC, VICE, Huffington Post, Religion News Service, and Newsweek. Born in the Midwest, he now calls New York City home, where he continues his work as a writer, digital strategist, and advocate for queer people of faith.
His first book, Conversion Therapy Dropout: A Queer Story of Faith and Belonging will be released on May 5, 2026. Pre-order his book here.
Follow Tim on social at @timothy.s.rodriguez on Instagram and Threads, or follow him on Substack at timothysrodriguez.substack.com.
About Heather McG
Heather is an Emmy and Cannes Lion Grand Prix-winning producer, author, and founder of McG Media. She is the creator of the happily never after, a 360-degree project that explores how life’s endings can lead to a new beginning. A twin mom, endurance athlete, and devoted Trekkie, sitting still has never been her forté.
Transcript
Heather McG (00:20)
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Happily Never After, a podcast where we explore how life's endings can lead to a new beginning. If you enjoy the show, don't forget to rate, review, and follow us wherever you're listening or watching the show today. My guest today, I'm so excited to talk to him. His name is Timothy Schrader Rodriguez, and he spent almost a decade in gay conversion therapy, all while working behind the scenes at some of the most influential evangelical Christian mega churches.
After embracing his identity as a gay Christian and stepping away from church work, he co-founded Church Clarity, an organization that helps queer people find affirming faith communities. His story and work have been featured by NBC, Vice, Huffington Post, Religion News Service, and Newsweek. Born in the Midwest, he now calls New York City home, where he continues his work as a writer, digital strategist, and advocate for queer people of faith.
I was privileged to be able to ⁓ get to read a draft of this early on. His first book is coming out next year, Conversion Therapy Dropout, A Queer Story of Faith and Belonging, which will be released May 5th, 2026. Timothy, I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you for being here.
Tim (01:27)
Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be here.
Heather McG (01:30)
so driving into your story, and I do have to tell everyone in reading your book, it really is a powerful story and it's very well written. So I really hope everyone picks it up. Cause I think it's not a story you hear all that often. Timothy and I were talking a little bit before we got started. There's a lot of feelings wrapped up in all this. It's a hard story to tell. It's a hard story to hear.
but it's really powerful and important. So I'm thankful as a reader that you are putting this out there and also as someone who came from that type of environment in an adjacent manner, I am thankful for you writing that story. Not everybody knows. Can you start us off by explaining what conversion therapy is?
Tim (02:07)
Yeah, totally. So like the easiest definition is like the idea that you can pray the gay away. So it is a practice that tries to help people change their sexual orientation. It's been around for a while. Basically, it uses like bad psychology, it's like religious undertone to it. But essentially through behavior modification, intense therapy that's not really therapy.
prayer and all those kinds of things, it suggests that it's possible for someone to change their sexual orientation. And a lot of people who may have been familiar with the idea of it naturally think that it is these horrific boot camps or electroshock therapy, which it is. It has ⁓ taken that form. For most people, which there's over 700,000 people in the US alone who have gone through some form of conversion therapy.
that looks more like going to a therapist on a weekly basis or support groups that are like AA for homosexuality or going to conferences ⁓ that are kind of the path that they take and the way that they engage with conversion therapy.
Heather McG (03:10)
there's a passage in your book and I'm still thinking about it. I think to me, this is the part of your book that stuck with me the most. So there is a part, you're talking about the retreats that you went to, I believe on a yearly basis. And there was a certain point very late on when you had been going for a long time.
where at the beginning you noted that the people that were young that were just starting conversion therapy were like full of energy. And I think you even mentioned there's a visual, ex-gay is okay, which I was like, my God, I have not heard that term in a really long time. ⁓ But you had a really sobering passage because at that point you were with the older folks that had been doing this for a long time. And it was just gut wrenching. And you talked about how the vibe was so different and it really broke my heart to be honest.
Tim (03:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (03:54)
You were in conversion therapy for a long time. I believe it was eight years ish. Can you talk about what was that experience like for you?
Tim (03:57)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, one of the things that shocks people or has shocked people that have read the early versions of the book is that there was no adult in my life that shoved me in that direction. My parents, pastor, there was no adult that said you have to do this. But everything in the culture that I grew up in pushed me in that direction and made me feel like it was a path that I needed to follow. And so I was desperate.
to want to change because I thought who I was was fundamentally broken and unacceptable. And so I was willing to do anything and everything to be straight, which is so funny to say now. But initially, was on the surface level, it made sense. There was a little bit of psychology to it. A lot of their arguments for this is why I ended up the way that I was. They tracked with my experience. I think over time, though, I started to realize that just by
trying to lower my voice or not be so animated when I talk or only watching like Braveheart and not Clueless or only listening to like music that had a male lead and not like all of these external things that I was trying to do while also intensely, you know, going through conversion therapy. did lots of different forms of it. I did an online support group for a while. I did individual counseling. I went to support groups. I went to these conferences that you mentioned and
I was also working for churches. So like if anyone was set up for success, like it should have been me. And the longer I was in it and the more that I realized the change that I was seeking wasn't happening, I started to think there was something fundamentally wrong with me. Like I never questioned the program. I never questioned the efficacy because they would always parade around these people who had been successful and like had a spouse of the opposite gender. And that moment that you mentioned was, ⁓
you know, at these conferences I used to go to, they would put everyone under the age of 26 in their own little area. And like, it was exciting, it was fun. You know, we were around people, really, when I think about it today, like, that was like my first experiences of queer community, even though we were all trying not to be, but there were like hundreds of us who were at these conferences, fired up for God, wanting to change. And, you how could you not feel the excitement of that? And then the year I turned 26, I got into like general population and
was with all of these guys who were in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s. And I just remember looking around the room and I was already questioning so much. I was like, I don't think this is working. I don't think this is it. And just looking around the room and seeing the hopelessness in their eyes and just like, you know, they say the eyes are the window to the soul and like just looking in their eyes, I did not see any hope. I did not see anything that like queued to me that this was good. And like, you know, not to get all biblical, but like Jesus used to say, like, you would know.
you if the tree is good by its fruit, you could judge by its fruit. And, you know, I'm looking around the room. I'm like, I'm not seeing any good fruit here. Like, I am seeing these people who look broken. They look tired. They look like they're a shell of a human being. This is the only time of the year that they feel like they can be themselves and feel OK. And like, it's like this is not the abundant life that I think we're all supposed to experience. And I think that maybe something isn't wrong with me. Maybe there's something wrong with the program. But it took me eight years to realize that.
Heather McG (06:45)
Yeah.
Well, I think when you are, it kind of shows how powerful that ideology is because I think a lot of people would say like, took a very long, it takes a very long time. I don't know what it is if it's a humanity thing or in the United States, a cultural thing, but you think you're the problem always for a long time. And it takes such a long time to start to say, maybe the system is a problem and maybe there's another way where I can be happy and feel good about my life at the same time.
Tim (07:25)
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Heather McG (07:40)
Now you also write in the book about, you know, what was going on for you around the decision to leave. Can you talk about what brought you, you know, and I kind of don't like the word courage. I'm not sure what word to use because it kind of insinuates like for people that maybe aren't able to get themselves to leave that there's something wrong with them. And I don't mean that, but I do want to recognize what a big deal it is to leave. Can you talk about what got you to a place where you were ready to say, is not for me anymore. ⁓ How did you do that?
Tim (07:49)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (08:09)
What happened?
Tim (08:09)
Yeah.
So that conference I went to that I mentioned was kind of the first step of the journey. Like I was like, I don't know about this. And I was so scared because I didn't think I had any other option. And so I kind of told myself, okay, like maybe I'll put that to the side. And maybe if I just get so busy and focused on my work that I will just kind of be distracted from.
this storm that's swirling inside of me. And I was working for a church in Chicago and we were a younger congregation. We were like early to social media. And I started writing about how our church was leveraging social media and digital marketing and a lot of things ahead of a lot of the bigger evangelical mega churches. And so I was like being invited to speak at all these national conferences for church leaders. I was at a book deal brewing. Like I had a lot of good things moving in the right direction. And I hoped that all
of that would kind of distract me from all of the bigger things. And I had this like month of just like traveling to conferences and meeting all of these influential pastors and like, you know, really like for my career trajectory as like a celebrity Christian, like I was on the path to success. And I got home from that. And I just remember waking up one night and just this feeling of if these people knew the truth of who I really was, like if
if I stumble, if I fall, if I make the wrong move, I know conversion therapy doesn't work, but like, if they knew the truth of who I was, all of this would go away. Like I would lose everything. because it wasn't just, you know, my, it wasn't just the conversion therapy, like leaving it would mean I would lose my community, I would lose my career, like everything. And I had a nervous breakdown. I couldn't get out of bed for a few days.
Heather McG (09:49)
Yeah.
Tim (09:57)
And the tape that was playing through my mind the whole time was I would rather die than keep living the way I'm living. Like I can't imagine another way. And fortunately, I realized, like, I don't need to end my life. I need to just maybe figure out a different path and what that could look like for me. And even knowing that what was at stake, I was like, I would rather try to discover who I really am than keep striving or
trying to become something that I know I am not. And ⁓ I think too, like, I grew up in like a charismatic tradition that was like, you know, God only blesses what he's a part of. so I was like, if God really is with me, like, cause I didn't want to leave the church. I didn't want to leave faith altogether. Like that was still so important to me. And so I trusted that like, okay, if I make this decision and if I start to try to figure out what this looks like for me to be gay and Christian or whatever,
Heather McG (10:34)
Yeah.
Tim (10:52)
⁓ I have to trust that like God, the spirit, the universe, higher power, whatever you want to call it, is going to look out for me and that like the right things will happen. And so as I kind of started to take steps in that direction, you know, it wasn't easy. I lost my job. I lost a lot. Like I, all of those fears did come true, but there was a lot of life and a lot of love on the other side.
Heather McG (11:12)
I, you know, something too that has been sticking with me that you talk about in your book and also that's part of your story is, and please correct me if I, if you would reframe this differently. It feels like you have such a journey to live who you really are or to live, you know, to bring out, out into the outside world, you know, who you are inside. And it feels like you fought really hard to be able to do that. And you gave up a lot to be able to do that.
I am very familiar with the environment you're talking about, and I think I'm thinking about the people I know who are gay, and they are still back there in the world of that's wrong, even going through conversion therapy and all of those things. you still are a man of faith, how did you get there to where you still love Jesus, but you get to be who you are, because there's nothing wrong with who you are? Like, how'd you do that?
Tim (12:01)
was a long path. It wasn't easy. I was... So I made the decision to leave conversion therapy. And I obviously, through the years of going to all these conferences, have met a lot of people, hundreds, thousands of people. And through social media, I was kind of following and seeing what paths people were following. And there was one friend in particular who, they actually made a documentary about him, one of the big conversion therapy... ⁓
practitioners made a film about him. And so he was kind of like a poster child for the X gay movement. And he came out and it was a big deal. ⁓ he was still though, I guess to back up a second, like the only option that was ever presented to us in conversion therapy is honor God and be straight or be gay and go to hell. Like there was no like middle row. There was no embracing of those two ideals. And
He started posting a lot about this organization. It was called the Gay Christian Network back then today. It's called QCF, Queer Christian Fellowship. But he started posting about these articles that he was reading about, maybe we haven't been interpreting the Bible right, or maybe there is another way. And so when I kind of realized conversion therapy wasn't going to work for me, he was one of the first people that I reached out to. was like, hey, how did you do this? And he's like, funny enough, there's a conference you can come to with me in a couple of months. And I was like, dude, I just like.
went to my last Exodus conference six months ago. Like, don't know if I can do this. And he's like, no, just come. You're going to find people who are in the same boat as you. And he paid my way to go, which was awesome. And so I went to this conference. And it was so funny because it was like, was the exact same crowd that was at the conferences I used to go to, instead of like,
how to not be gay. was like, how to embrace who you are and like how to read the Bible through a, know, a gay affirming lens. And it was just like, it was all the same, but like upside down. And it was such, it was crazy. But there was a speaker there and he said this phrase that has stuck with me like forever, that the church may be a whore, but she's your mother. And he was like, this is the relationship we're gonna have with the church. Like.
Heather McG (14:08)
Yeah.
Tim (14:10)
And I resonated with that so much because so much of my identity and the sense of belonging and community that I had experienced in life was in the church. And I didn't feel like I could completely leave, but I did feel the need to kind of separate and like redefine what the relationship looked like. And I have held onto that phrase and it is like served me very well over the last, you know, 12 years since I left conversion therapy to be reminded, like, you know, the church can fail us.
hurt us, you know, it's, it's, can do a lot of harm, but at the end of the day, I know it's a part of who I am, because it made me who I am. And so, you know, through a lot of trial and error through some time away from it, and then kind of reengaging in a community here in New York that ⁓ is gay affirming, I have kind of come back to a place where I'm like, okay, with faith, and the God that I've come to know now that accepts me for who I am, not in spite of who I am. And so it's been a very long journey. But I'm grateful that
Throughout it, I've been able to kind of hang on to that faith that matters to me, but also being exactly who I believe God's created me to be.
Heather McG (15:12)
How how did you feel when you made the decision to leave? When you're like, this is it, I'm leaving, I can't do this anymore. How did you feel?
Tim (15:19)
It was so scary. ⁓ It was like standing on the edge, like, all right, like there's no turning back. And, you know, on one hand, I went to that conference and ⁓ I, you know, for the first time in my life, prayed out loud, thank you, God, for making me gay. And that was so significant to me because every other prayer I had prayed before that was like, God, please don't.
me be gay, like change me. And so to kind of flip the script a little bit and for that truth to kind of like, like, God made me this way, like, and the way that like, I can honor God or like live into who I really am is by like embracing that not trying to warn from it. And so it was so liberating, but also like, the backside, I look at, I started to realize, like, I lost a whole decade of my life to them, all of my 20s to conversion therapy and to this like,
Heather McG (15:50)
Yeah.
Tim (16:16)
program that did not work. And it was the time, the energy, the money that I spent in therapy and going to these conferences. It was ⁓ freeing and liberating, but it was also really painful as I started to realize the impact that it had on my life and the time that I had lost.
Heather McG (16:33)
Yeah, how do you reconcile that now? Because I think what you're describing is something a lot of people feel who've made a change from, ⁓ whether it's fundamentalist or evangelical, into who they are now. you have a lot of regret? you have, and maybe regret's not the right word. I think a lot of people feel like they lost a lot of time to something that was hurting them pretty badly. How do you get past that? Or how do you work through that?
Tim (16:43)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
you know, for better or worse, it's, it's, it's a part of my journey. It's a part of my story. I, the work that I did in mega churches, I never thought it would ever translate to a work outside of church. And yet, you know, some of the accounts that I managed, you know, had millions of followers. And so when I went to, you know, a tech company and said, Hey, I've done this. They're like, wait, you've.
done that one. I don't know. So it's like, there's like so many little threads of that life that created who I am today and like gave me the opportunities that I have today. ⁓ one of the big, you know, leaving conversion therapy was a big deal. ⁓ You know, but another big transformation I've had in the last four years is getting sober and
Heather McG (17:33)
Yeah.
Tim (17:47)
And I didn't realize until later how much of that was connected to kind of the residual shame and all of those things that I experienced in conversion therapy. But in recovery, there is a phrase they call them the promises that are read often in recovery meetings. And one of the lines says, we'll no longer wish to shut the door on our past, but we'll learn to see how our experience can help others.
And, you know, all of the conversion therapy stuff was things I didn't really tell a lot of people about. Like, it's a weird, that kills the vibe on the first date, you know? And they're like, yeah, I was in conversion therapy. I came out when I was 28. Like, that's not, you know, you don't want to lead with that. ⁓ But as I started to see how conversion therapy and all of that was intertwined with what became addiction later for me, I saw that the way out of that and the way to make good of it was to...
Heather McG (18:17)
Hahaha
Yeah.
Tim (18:37)
share my story and to write the book and to hopefully help create something that can help someone hopefully not have to go through what I went through because even though conversion therapy has been discredited by every major medical establishment that's out there, Exodus International, the biggest organization that was supporting it closed in 2013 saying it didn't work. Even despite all of that and statewide conversion therapy bands, there's still over 1300 people
who are practicing conversion therapy in 48 states. And so it's not gone away, it's just gone undercover. And so I feel, especially in the times that we're in right now, like there's bills on the table to try to undo conversion therapy bans. So I feel like it's important for me to share that story. And I think that that is one way that I can kind of redeem that time that was lost by hoping that what I put into the world can help someone else.
Heather McG (19:12)
Yeah.
Well, what you're talking about is something that I think about a lot and I think it's really beautiful. It's kind of the nature of creativity in art. it's taking something that's really painful and it's transforming it into something meaningful, compelling.
Tim (19:44)
Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (19:47)
But something that's a major theme in your book that I thought was really interesting, because we all have things that are like, ooh, I had a lot of experience with this. And identity seems to be something you have had a lot of experience with. One of the major themes in your book, you talk about working through your identity as a gay man, as a Christian, navigating adoption, living a sober life, and as Mexican-American. There are just so many aspects and facets of the prism that you've worked through.
What kinds of lessons have your experiences with identity brought home to you?
Tim (20:17)
Yeah, great question. You know, I've learned to kind of live in the tension of the contradictions. Like, you know, gay Christian, like I'm weird in the gay world for being Christian and I'm weird in the Christian world for being gay. I'm a sober alcoholic. I'm adopted, but I know my biological, like, you know, I feel like we kind of always feel like we have to be one or the other. you know, we look...
Heather McG (20:40)
Yeah.
Tim (20:41)
the world, like, you know, in very black and white terms, but I just like, dude, it's a full spectrum of who we are. Like, and, so I, you know, for a long time, tried to conform who I was in my identity, there was certain type of person that was deemed acceptable or that I thought, you know, I was taught to believe God wanted me to be, which was kind of muting all of those different parts of myself. And as I've started to like have the courage to be who I really am to
take on the last name of my biological family, the Rodriguez's, to embrace sobriety, to write this. But like all of those things, I think have just been me kind of like chipping away at the layers of the things that I used to try to hide or conceal, ⁓ you know, those juxtapositions and those differences. And, you know, too, like coming out later in life is like a second adolescence. Like there was a whole like teenage, childhood, early young adult years that most people experience naturally.
Heather McG (21:21)
Yeah.
Tim (21:36)
that I and other folks that went through conversion therapy or come out later in life don't experience until later in life. And so I had that experience too, which was crazy. And ⁓ I think the thing I've discovered through all of it is the key for me was building community. Like it was finding other people and connecting with other people. And the most meaningful way that you do that is by bringing your full self and being who you really are and finding people who love you not.
Heather McG (21:43)
Yeah.
Tim (22:06)
in spite of those things, but who love you because you're showing up as your full self. And so, ⁓ you know, I think it's, I've not done, I'm not finished. There's still parts of myself and my identity that I'm figuring out and uncovering. But I think it is kind of like a lifelong process of like learning to settle into and own who you really are. And it's, ⁓ that's a lot better than trying to pretend or be someone that you're not. And that's what I've learned about identity.
Heather McG (22:32)
Yeah.
Yeah, you're making me think about kind of the wonder of community. Because I think there are so many things that like, everybody's got them. Everyone's got things about themselves that they hide that they don't want to talk about because they are either ashamed or they feel weird about it they don't know how to talk about it. And it just pushes you further into isolation and kind of the miracle of starting to...
be brave enough to be honest and vulnerable about things. Not in a way that puts you in a dangerous situation, but just to be more open and safe environments. You feel so much better. You feel so much connected to other people. And I think invariably, at least for me, there's always been a few people who I've shared with that have had similar experiences. And it's like lifting each other up. It's like, I really feel strongly that healing happens in community. I don't think...
Tim (23:21)
Absolutely.
Heather McG (23:22)
healing can happen when you're in a cave by yourself.
Tim (23:24)
I agree. Yeah, yeah. mean, right after I came out, I lost my community. The church people and the friends that I had accepted the version of me that said I'm trying to change.
And when I said, hey, think I need to figure out what this looks like, that all those friendships went away. And some of them stuck around. But most of them were like, we agree with you, but we don't know. And I was living with roommates from the church that I went to. And they said, hey, you have to leave. And I was like, OK, where do I go now? because I had shared my ex-gay testimony at my church, which is
Heather McG (23:56)
And.
Tim (24:02)
crazy. But ⁓ between that and like being involved in, know, X-Gay Ministries, I knew a lot of people who are in the same boat as me. And they say sometimes we need to create the community that we crave. And so I was like, I don't know what to do. I don't know where to go. But I know there's a lot of other people who are in the same boat. And so
I wrote to a bunch of the people who lived in Chicago or nearby that I knew who were on the same path. And I said, hey, we should all get together. Let's have dinner. And I didn't want it to feel like a church small group or anything like a Bible study. But it's just like, we're all navigating what this looks like, and we don't know what we're doing. And so we started to get together, and it just became this thing. And we jokingly called ourselves the Lost Boys. And we were all in our mid to late 20s, newly out.
Heather McG (24:35)
Yeah.
Tim (24:51)
trying to navigate, know, some wanted to keep pursuing, you know, church life and faith, others were walking away from it, but all of us were like, doing all of our firsts at the same time, first dates, first kisses, first sexual experiences, first going out to gay bars. And like, we kind of got to do all of that together and support one another through that time. And I mean, that group stuck together for about three or four years. And like, we're all still friends today. Like we've all kind of gone different paths, but like...
I don't think any of us could have navigated those early awkward days of coming out later in life if we didn't have one another. that community thread has followed me through the rest of my adult life in different ways. ⁓ Obviously, ⁓ in recovery, it's all about community. And there was a moment in recovery that I was like, it's so funny. Coming out was a catalyst, eventually, for me. ⁓
I would say identifying addiction, like addiction was a way that I was dealing with the pain of all of that. so, you know, with that addiction led me back into church basements with queer people to learn how to stay sober by having a relationship with God. it was like, what? Like divine sense of humor there. And then, you know, even this book, like it was, I was like, I think that this is a story I should tell, but I felt, you know, writing is a very isolating thing. Like you're by yourself in your laptop.
Heather McG (25:54)
You ⁓
You
Yeah.
Tim (26:10)
And I joined a writing group and those people, you know, as they were reading all these crazy stories, were like, you, people need to hear this. Like you need to bring this book to reality. And so I was like, all right. And like we all stuck together for two and a half years every Wednesday night on zoom, like reading each other's stuff. And, you know, community has been such a huge part of like every evolution of my life. And, you know, it's definitely ⁓ what sustained me and supported me through all the different transitions I've had.
Heather McG (26:38)
You did make me laugh in one passage you were talking about getting to know the Lost Boys and you were talking about going out and you mentioned a place here. So Tim used to live in Chicago. You don't live there now, but you used to and I live here right now and I went, I've been here for 25 years. So during the college 20s and you mentioned side tracks and I like, oh my God, yes. So for anyone who's familiar, it's a great place to go. You can have a drink. It's really fun. There's also you're singing along to the songs the whole time.
Tim (26:43)
Yeah.
Thanks.
Yes.
Show tunes,
yes, the best.
Heather McG (27:07)
that is so fun. Okay,
so I'd like to read this really beautifully written quote from your book that I'm still thinking about. I didn't and it's about belonging. I didn't understand yet that belonging shouldn't require sacrifice, that the arms open wide to receive me would eventually close like a trap. I had no way of knowing that the love I'd found would eventually ask for more than anyone should give. Can you say more about what that quote means to you?
Tim (27:32)
⁓ yeah. It's the trap of belonging that fake false belonging like there was the church even after so I quit conversion therapy and then I for a few more years after that kept working in churches. ⁓
They knew I was gay. We didn't really talk about it. It was kind of not. It was on the DL. I signed some NDA agreements, you know, but they valued the work that I could do. And so in a way I was like, well, if me being a gay person can help change things for queer people in churches, then like I'll stick it out if I can. And, you know, at the end of the day, I was welcomed in churches and in spaces if I stayed celibate, if I followed the path that they wanted me to follow.
if I stayed quiet, if I diminished the parts of who I was. And I did all of those things for a long time because I thought that's the only way that things are gonna get better for someone like me. And I realized, ⁓ after leaving all of that, that true belonging never requires you to cut off parts of who you are. It embraces all of who you are. And in church,
I felt that sense of welcome and belonging and acceptance, but only to a certain point. And that is what put me in conversion therapy. That's what got me into the mess that I found myself in. And so I learned the hard way that authentic belonging means being accepted for your whole self and not just the parts that folks say are acceptable. It's like showing up as your whole self. ⁓
Heather McG (28:55)
Yeah.
Tim (29:14)
I'm grateful to have found those communities and spaces that welcome me just as I am.
Heather McG (29:18)
something also that you talked about in your book that, you know, I think there's a larger conversation here. We both come from the charismatic tradition and the charismatic tradition, the worship service, I would say is almost more important than anything else. Like it's like the primaries and people go and legitimately the music is beautiful. It is like pop music a lot of times.
I think there are some, Hillsong, which is a group that you mentioned here, I think they have legitimately charted on secular billboard charts. It is like no shade, beautifully done music, all right? And it gets you excited. However, I think there's a bigger conversation to be had there about how it's almost like making something that's really emotional, but what it's tying you to is pretty harmful. And you talk about Hillsong in your book.
Tim (29:46)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (30:08)
And now looking back, how do you feel about that now in terms of that role that that beautiful concert level music and all that lighting and it's produced at such a high level, but they do so much harm. How do you think about that now?
Tim (30:22)
Ooh, so this isn't in the book, but I worked as a contractor for Hillsong for about two years and their music was the soundtrack of my teenage years. It was the music that I would be crying to as I was praying for God to change me. ⁓
And I think the magic of what they did was they created this larger than life experience that made you feel like you were a part of something bigger than yourself. And, you know, as a kid looking for belonging, looking for connection, looking to be seen, like they kind of created that space. They created that environment. You know, I went and traveled, you know, all across the United States, whenever they would be touring or in churches. Like I just, I was swept up into it I eventually had the opportunity to work there.
Heather McG (30:49)
Yeah.
Tim (31:10)
as a contractor. you know, in the end, you know, the music connected me to something bigger than myself. But, you know, when I got there and was presented with this opportunity to work there, they said, you know, you can you can be here, but like, you just can't like let people know that you're gay, like you need to keep it under wraps. And I had been out for a little bit at that point. I was like, I don't want to I don't want to go through this again.
Like I don't want to be in a space that I'm just conditionally accepted, conditionally belonging. Like I don't want to do that. ⁓ but last year I was in Sydney for work. have a totally different job now and I was there for work and I was like, I feel like I need to go back and just see it. Like not taking the job there was one of the most difficult decisions I ever had to make. And I had not been back there in 11 years. And so I went.
Heather McG (31:36)
Yeah.
Tim (32:04)
to a service there. ⁓ you know, like it was in a lot of ways, it was the same, nothing changed. Like it was the predictable format, the smoke, the lights, this big screens, you know, people jumping or like, it was the exact same. And I, you know, they've had a reckoning ⁓ in the last few years, the pastor of Hillsong is no longer there because of some accusations from women.
Heather McG (32:17)
Yeah.
Tim (32:31)
⁓ and different things, financial and propriety. And so standing there in that sanctuary, was just like, never dreamed I'd ever go back there. And there was part of me that could appreciate the role that it played in my life. Like, yeah, like this was it. Like, you know, like I can remember the role that it played, but then I had equally like strong, was proud of.
the younger version of myself that saw the wisdom then to walk away from it. And I could, you know, be proud of that younger version of me that was like, no, I need to choose myself and not continue to sacrifice. And so it was kind of like closing the chapter on that in a way, like I was like, okay, I've been there, I went back, I did it. ⁓ But I do think that across the board in evangelicalism, ⁓ there are so many of these mega churches.
Heather McG (33:01)
Yeah.
Tim (33:25)
that are really about building a lifestyle brand around the church and turning the pastors into influencers and turning the worship bands into these chart-topping worship bands. And I just think that there's, that's not it. Like that's not the Jesus that I say I wanna follow today. Like that is creating a system of harm that's not just towards gay people, but towards women, towards lots of different groups of people, because it's just only ever focused on protecting itself.
Heather McG (33:32)
Yeah.
Tim (33:54)
making money, like, you know, they're just these multi-million dollar industries, essentially, but they just, you know, wrap what they do or spirituality around what they do. And so I, and I was complicit in that system. Like I, you know, worked for these churches, I helped promote them on social media. So like, I know the, the role that I played in some of that. And, you know, I'm grateful that, you know, some of those organizations are now being held accountable, you know, for the harm that they've caused. And, you know,
Heather McG (33:54)
Yeah.
Tim (34:23)
I am glad that that is not how I find my spiritual connection today.
Heather McG (34:29)
Yeah. What would you say your relationship with God looks like now?
Tim (34:34)
Great question, it's very different. I used to see God as this angry person that was not happy with me, that was demanding me change who I was. That was a scary judgmental God. And I think the God that I've come to know or in recovery is that we would say the God of my understanding is a God of love and compassion and cares about who people are and like.
Heather McG (34:35)
Hahaha!
Tim (34:59)
the real challenges facing our world and not trying to protect or defend or is politically engaged in a way that's just about Christian nationalism or anything like that. And so I took a break from church for a minute. ⁓ I left Chicago and I moved to New York and I needed to kind of take a minute away. I, yeah, it all kind of caught up with me, but I found a church here in New York called Good Shepherd and it is like maybe a hundred people. It's not huge.
They meet in like rented venues. The words are never right on the screen. know, it's like so stylistically different than any church I had ever been a part of. But, you know, there's a lot of queer people that go there and it's not like an exclusively queer church. Like there's all kinds of people that go there, which I like. Like it's not, you know, one group or the other. Like I'm around lots of different people and
Heather McG (35:36)
Yeah.
Tim (35:53)
You know, there's a connection there that I found that I had never found anywhere else of just like there's a liturgy and they read old prayers and like it's just, there's something about it that resonates with me and I am grateful that I found that community and those people. you know, I would say that's one place that I experienced God. think the other has been in recovery. ⁓ You know, they say that, some people say that they look at God as a group of drunks, like G-O-D. ⁓
Heather McG (36:19)
Hahaha!
Tim (36:21)
And I have to say, you know, I worked in churches for so long that, you know, preached this message of life change and life transformation. And I never really saw that. Like, you know, it was always just like external whatever. But, you know, in recovery, like I see people come in who like me were kind of crazy, messed up all over the place. And, you know, I watched them as they get time and sobriety and watch how their lives really changed from the inside out. And I say, like, that's, that's God at work.
Like that's someone who used to have to drink or take drugs to numb themselves and not feel things that now that they can show up to life and in my case, make good of a really painful situation. That to me is God at work today. It's like people coming alive to who they were really created to be and living into that. And so I'm grateful to kind of found both of those communities, both in Good Shepherd and Recovery, that have really helped me form a new way to see God and see spirituality and transformation.
Heather McG (37:20)
I love that phrase, God at work. I think that's a better way to think about it. Like, are we seeing God at work in making someone's life better? Or is it giving someone a nervous breakdown? Is it making their life better or is it making them fall apart? That's a good way to think about it. Now there's a term that I am dead positive you have heard before that I think is pretty prolific. It's called, the way it goes is, hate the sin, love the sinner.
Tim (37:22)
You
Mm-hmm.
Right, totally. ⁓
⁓ yeah.
Heather McG (37:48)
And a lot of times
it's used in conjunction with being gay, being queer, and that entire community. and people still use it today, what would you say to people that still use that term as a reason to rationalize what they're doing and saying? would you say to someone who still believes that?
Tim (38:05)
You know, I would say that that is an archaic belief. I think a lot of people assume that being gay is a choice, that it's something that you can change, but you the Bible says that...
God made us that we're fearfully and wonderfully made, that we're made in God's image. And I believe that that is true of me and every queer person. And I don't think that God makes mistakes. And so I would encourage people that think that way to get to know a queer person, like someone who is out and proud and like really get to know them and people that they love. and then rethink that way of thinking because that's just part of who I am. evangelicals like to
to
peel that away and say, well, you know, that's just your sin. That's not your identity. But it's like, no, like that is as natural to me as my eye color, as my hair color most days. Like that is who I am. And so I just think that's a very, very archaic old way of thinking about human sexuality and what this experience is like. And I don't think that folks that say that.
Heather McG (38:54)
Hahaha
Tim (39:07)
have someone close in their life that has dealt with this. And I think any queer person that is seeking faith is one of the most courageous people in the world because we are still pursuing something that so many people say is not for us, where we don't belong, that there's not room for people like us. And so I would really say, let's take a look at your faith and let's take a look at theirs and let's have a conversation.
Heather McG (39:34)
Yeah, yeah, there's like so many. Once in a while I'll still hear that term and I'm like, oh, where do we start with where this is? And there's like a few conversations wrapped up in that one sentence. you have such a powerful story to tell. There are so many things that you have been through. I'm so happy for you that you've gotten to this place where you're living a good, happy, authentic life. You know, it's not an opera, it's sadly not.
Tim (39:40)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Heather McG (39:59)
place everybody gets to anything important, I'll acknowledge that as well. But with everything you've been through everything you've learned, what do know for sure?
Tim (40:07)
⁓ man, I know that belonging should not require the sacrifice of your authentic self. ⁓ I know that God's love is bigger than any of the boxes that religion tries to stuff it in. ⁓ I know that connection and community are essential for healing. ⁓ I don't think that we can...
We weren't meant to live life on our own. And through all of the different endings that I've had, know, ending conversion therapy, ending my work in church, ending the cycle of addiction and finding recovery, I know that like in every ending, not to be cliche, there is, there's a new beginning. And that when we can be who we really are created to be and live into the...
fullness of who we are, that takes courage. ⁓ But there's life and love on the other side of that.
Heather McG (41:09)
that is beautifully put. ⁓ I like to think about it as sometimes the hard thing and the right thing are the same thing. And that's why it's worth it. Well, thank you so much for being here, sharing your story today. ⁓ Everyone needs to go out and pre-order Tim's book. You won't be able to read it till May, but I've read it and I can tell you it's really great. ⁓ Where can people find you if they want to work with you or hear more?
Tim (41:16)
Yeah, I agree.
Absolutely.
Thank you.
awesome. Yeah, I'm on Instagram and threads. My handle is timothy.s.rodriguez. And then I'm also on Substack, timothysrodriguez.substack.
Heather McG (41:42)
and I'll link all of that in the show notes. It'll be easy for everybody to get a hold of that. And I'll also post a link to pre-order Tim's book. Thank you to all of you for listening to the Happily Never After today, especially for all of you that are on your own journey and we hope you have a great week. Thank you.