How to Not Suck at Starting Over with Andrea Rappaport
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Description
In this episode of The Happily Never After, host Heather McG welcomes Andrea Rappaport, co-host of top How Not to Suck at Divorce. Andrea shares her journey of overcoming an abusive marriage, the impact of her childhood on her adult relationships, and her path to healing and self-discovery. She discusses the importance of recognizing red flags, the challenges of rebuilding life post-divorce, and the ongoing process of personal growth.
About Andrea Rappaport
Andrea Rappaport is the co-host of the popular podcast How Not to Suck at Divorce. She's been featured on News Nation, TODAY show online, The Tamron Hall Show, as well as numerous appearances on local TV. Andrea uses her comedy skills and money her father spent on voice lessons, dance lessons and The Second City Conservatory to help divorcing individuals exhale and feel less alone. After leaving an abusive marriage when her boys were 2 and 4, Andrea is an advocate and public speaker on not only recognizing, red flags in relationship, but acting on them. She is happily remarried to man funnier than she is and lives in the northern suburbs of Chicago with her wildly crazy blended family. When she's not on the air or running her marketing firm, she can be seen hunting for discount fashion at TJ Maxx or Marshalls.
Follow Andrea on Instagram at @theandrearappaport
Follow Andrea on TikTok at @divorcepodcast
About Heather McG
Heather is an Emmy and Cannes Lion Grand Prix-winning producer, author, and founder of McG Media. She is the creator of the happily never after, a 360-degree project that explores how life’s endings can lead to a new beginning. A twin mom, endurance athlete, and devoted Trekkie, sitting still has never been her forté.
Transcript
Heather McG (00:20)
everyone. Welcome to the Happily Never After, a podcast where we explore how life's endings can lead to a new beginning. If you enjoy the show, don't forget to rate, review, follow us wherever you are listening or watching the show today. My guest today is Andrea Rapoport. Andrea is the co-host of the super popular divorce podcast, How Not to Suck a Divorce. I was a guest at one time. It was a whole lot of fun. They have a really great show.
She's been featured on News Nation, Today Show, the Tamron Hall Show, as well as numerous appearances on local TV. Andrea uses her comedy skills and the money her father spent on voice lessons, you do have a really great voice, dance lessons, and the Second City Conservatory to help divorcing individuals exhale and feel less alone.
Now after leaving an abusive marriage when her boys were two and four, Andrea is an advocate. But she's now happily remarried. That's a few years behind her at this point. and when she's not on the air or running her marketing firm, wow, you are busy. She can be seen hunting for discount fashion at TJ Maxx or Marshall's. Andrea.
I'm so happy to welcome you to the show.
Andrea Rappaport (01:22)
Hey, it was really fun hearing that bio read out loud. I'm like smiling and nodding. I'm like, that's right, that's right.
Heather McG (01:28)
It's
always a good, I feel like the intro to these shows often are quite a good little self-esteem booster for most people. like, I feel good now.
Andrea Rappaport (01:35)
They're so awkward writing. When you're tasked with writing your own bio, it's such a cringe-worthy moment. You're like, I don't like saying this about myself. But then when someone reads it, you're like, hell yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right.
Heather McG (01:37)
Mm-hmm.
I have accomplished some things in my life. I'm pretty cool. ⁓ alright, so this show is all about how life's endings can lead to a new beginning. Now, Andrea, you have been through some endings in your life. Can you talk about maybe the ones that have changed you the most?
Andrea Rappaport (01:51)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Okay. So I think that if we go in order of big events, the first big ending would be the relationship with my mother. The second big ending, wow, how is it? What time is it? It's like three minutes into recording and I'm already having feelings. Jesus, I love this show. don't know why. I I was fighting up for being emotional. Ugh. Okay.
Heather McG (02:23)
We're getting all the we're gonna start crying and that's scheduled for minute five
Andrea Rappaport (02:32)
Okay, going back, let's see. ⁓ Mother, number two would be having, ⁓ walking away from my acting and comedy career. And the third one would be my first marriage.
Heather McG (02:46)
Those are some big ones.
Andrea Rappaport (02:47)
Those are some big ones, yeah.
Heather McG (02:49)
Now something, Andrea, I've done a little bit of talking off camera, off air, about our childhoods and some of the ways that that's impacted us as adults. And I know that's been something that played a role for both of us. Can you talk to us about your relationship with your mom, where that went, how that went, and what that brought you to?
Andrea Rappaport (03:06)
I can. ⁓ This is a topic that I am getting my sea legs with. ⁓ So bear with me because I think this is the first time I've talked about it on a podcast. ⁓ It was a very unhealthy relationship because my mother
is sadly a very unhealthy and unwell individual. And it is impossible to have a healthy relationship with somebody who's not healthy. It does not mean that my mom didn't love me. I still believe that my mother loved me to the very best of her ability. And with that, I believe that her 100 % would not have ever been enough for
me. ⁓
I, on the outside, I had a really nice life. I grew up upper middle class ⁓ in, you know, really nice neighborhood. I had nice things. Nobody would have ever suspected that my upbringing was as challenging as it was. And it wasn't until ⁓ unpacking it in therapy years later and looking at why I gravitated towards a life on stage.
I was always hunting for attunement, which I never knew that word until I was older, but attunement for those people who haven't been through thousands of dollars of therapy, it's emotional attention. So when you don't get any kind of emotional attention because mom or dad or whoever's raising you is not able to give that, either they don't want to or they're not actually able, ⁓ you tend to hunt for attention, hoping that they'll fill that void.
And for me, obviously I wanted attention. ⁓ I started performing, but it was bigger than that. What I got in growing up doing theater was I got a family. And I lived to go to rehearsal every day. I lived to be ⁓ performing, not so much because I liked the sound of the applause, because I craved what happened in the dressing rooms.
⁓ backstage, the camaraderie. My favorite part of performing was what happened in that hour from mic check to going on stage, right? Like just being with other people, signing in, warming up, making jokes. that was what kept me going. And the worst part of my day was going home afterwards. And
I think that getting into more details about everything that went on in my home is probably not something that I'm ready to uncover just yet. ⁓ But it left me feeling very scared, very lost, very empty, and without really a role model for what does a healthy relationship look like.
Heather McG (06:00)
last you for a minute.
Now do you, something you said and you just like clipped with me, because this was something that for me, bad day in therapy where, you because I went to the theater as well. And the therapist, and I'm curious if you relate to this, it sounds like you might, the therapist asked me, she said, well, did you really like therapy or did you just do it to get your parents to pay attention to you?
Andrea Rappaport (06:40)
Therapy or theater? ⁓ yeah, so...
Heather McG (06:42)
theater. Like, you feel like, like I know
you had a whole beginning career in that area. Do you think you actually wanted to do that or do you think it was coming from a different place?
Andrea Rappaport (06:53)
I think a few things about it. I think that I actually loved performing, but I think again, what I loved most of all was everything that came with doing theater. Like now, because I'm slightly healthier, if somebody said to me, okay, Andrea, you haven't acted in a bunch of years. Do you want to go do a community theater production of Fiddler on the Roof? I'd be like, no.
Not at all. I'd rather like, no, I want to go buy cute shoes. I have no, I don't have desire, but I will sing you the entire score of Fiddler on the Roof in my car while we drive around town doing funny, goofy things because it's the high that I get from that experience, not the high for, I don't need the applause and the attention and all of that stuff. So I don't know. I don't, I also think that
I think that I recognized at a very young age that something was wrong with mommy. So I never chased her for love or attunement. I detached. That is a big problem that I have now because it is very, very easy for me to detach and walk away from friendships and from relationships.
because I am a bandaid ripper offer. If I see, I, and to my detriment, like I, and I'm terrified of conflict and I won't even engage, I won't engage in a conflict with a friend. It's easier for me to just say, all right, then fuck off, we'll never talk again. Because I don't have those conflict resolution skills. Because I saw so early on with my own mom that it can't be addressed, it can't be helped. This person is who it is. But then something,
got in my brain, it's hard for me to see the difference between people that who can actually change and in places where you do actually need to work out a problem. Does that make sense? It's weird.
Heather McG (08:59)
Yeah,
yes, no, I get all of that. you, how did this, now when it came to choosing a partner in romantic relationships, how did that impact?
Andrea Rappaport (09:10)
Well, I was drawn to crazy. I wouldn't say that conflict felt comfortable because it wasn't that. It was that ⁓ somebody with a lot of pain and a ⁓ dark past and issues felt like home.
I did not think that I could fix them. didn't have that kind of mentality. I think that I just thought like, well, that's maybe what I deserve. ⁓
I think that it's also though wrapped up in what happened in my ⁓ early 20s with my acting career. ⁓ I think that I had some traumatic experiences with my career and I think that that coupled with my childhood primed me to believe very little in myself and my ability ⁓ to be loved.
to be deserving of love and I started settling. So I think it's a few things that came together. And unfortunately for me, it kept stacking on top of each other until my life just completely spiraled out of control. I said before, like, I'm a band-aid ripper offer. Well, in my marriage,
I did eventually rip off the band-aid, but I let it get to the point where I was bleeding internally and almost dying that I decided that I had enough. So it's weird. It's so weird, the things that we tell ourselves and what we choose to believe.
Heather McG (10:39)
Yeah.
Well, it's kind of funny, you know, when we're talking about ourselves and when our life is spinning out of control, it's kind of funny. The only person that can save you is you, but you are also the one who is spinning out of control. So it's like you're looking to the least qualified person to pull you out, which is just, you know, there's no other way out, but it's just kind of, when I think about it, it's a miracle that anybody makes it ⁓ off the bathroom floor, bathroom floor moment as we have spoken about.
Andrea Rappaport (11:15)
you're in the eye of the storm and it's really hard to direct the ship when you're in the eye of the hurricane, right? But you have to do it, but you're drowning and there's literally like water splashing everywhere. It's dark outside, you can't see, but you know that it has to be you. I don't know, people always...
ask me, like Andrea, when you were at your very worst, because I talk about that pretty publicly about ⁓ when I got really, really sick from a pretty bad panic disorder in my marriage and what happened, right? And how did you get to that point where you're like, I'm not going to do this anymore. I have to leave. And what's weird is I can speak to it with such clarity now. But then
What's wild to me is when I go back and I look at the fact that I willingly entered a marriage where I knew that the person I was marrying, much like my mother, did not have the ability to love me the way that I deserve to be loved. My first husband did not change. He is the exact same person he was when he and I started dating. He and I were together for 12 years.
married for six and it was never good. There were never good times. We both, I think, settled. don't think that he ever, I don't think he was ever physically attracted to me. I mean, I know as much because we talked about it a lot. We went to couples therapy almost from the beginning of our relationship because we were, yeah, yeah, yeah, not for me though. I'm like, this looks great. ⁓
Heather McG (12:56)
a bad sign.
He wants to work on our relationship.
We've been dating for two weeks.
Andrea Rappaport (13:06)
I mean, I had therapists that would look at me in the middle of these sessions like, the hell is wrong with you? Like this person is telling you, Andrea, he is not attracted to you. Now, but he would say things like, I'm not attracted to you because you're just not the kind of person somebody would be attracted to. like, okay, and that is like a dick thing to say, but what's crazy is that I would sit there and be like, I get it.
Heather McG (13:12)
Yeah.
Heather McG (13:31)
All right, so Andrea, what you're describing is so, it's shocking to me because the person I'm looking at is very different from who you're describing. When you think back to that time in your life, what you were putting up with, what you were accepting, the fact that you chose to marry this person that you knew, like you knew, you already knew at that point that this wasn't ⁓ maybe what it was supposed to be.
⁓ What would you say to that person? Like what do you think in looking back on that and how far back on the path you used to be?
Andrea Rappaport (14:01)
Well, I think that one of the problems is we tend to, we get married before we know who we are and we know what we really want and we know our like worth as a human being. So I think like that's number one is I think that we all need a certain amount of like personal accomplishments in our bag before we're ready to like.
merge our life like with somebody else. I also think that unfortunately, as a society, we don't understand that getting married is a business agreement. Like getting married, it is. It's business. It's not about love. It's just a relationship. But a marriage is a legal transaction. And if you're already sharing your life with someone who's
mentally and emotionally unwell, and you're already trusting your heart with them. OK, well, that's another story. I wouldn't do that. But if you're going to agree to get into a legally binding agreement with that person who is not well and who you know you have all those feelings inside of you, all those little parts of your body that are raising these red flags, I want to do that. This doesn't feel right.
If you're pushing all of those down to the bottom and you're still gonna sign on the dotted line, don't. That's the thing that I see different now. Now the person that I am sees, recognizes those flags as like little, I'm not a blessings kind of girl. I think it's like the Jew in me. We don't typically throw around words like blessing, but I see it as a blessing. I see those little red flags as like.
Heather McG (15:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Andrea Rappaport (15:53)
people who want to help you. It reminds me of a time when I was married, my first marriage, and I was really sick and I was in the hospital and I was having a panic attack. And the ER doctor said to me, after they were giving me medication, he was trying to just be nice and talk to me while the medication kicked in. And he said, do you know that it's very common for doctors when they're going through residency to have panic attacks?
And I'm like, no, what do you mean? I'm shaking. He's like, well, and he's telling me that it's because of all the things that they're pushing away that happened to them, things that they've seen that they've never seen before. You're pushing things aside, you're pushing things aside, you're acting like you're fine. And then the panic attack is the way of your body getting your attention saying, I don't think we're fine. Like you have to stop ignoring the problem.
And so he looked at me and he's like, whatever's going on in your life right now, and I don't know you, but stop ignoring the problem.
Heather McG (16:54)
Wow, he really went the extra mile to talk to you about what was going on.
Andrea Rappaport (16:55)
I'm like, ⁓
I know. I'm like, thanks, buddy.
Heather McG (17:03)
Do
⁓ you feel like the panic attacks that you were having, do you feel like they were coming, you know, because it's kind of complicated to tell because a lot of times it's a mix between something that's pathological and then also the circumstances of our life. For you, were the panic and anxiety attacks you were experiencing, which sounded debilitating, was it coming from your life or where were those things coming from for you?
Andrea Rappaport (17:26)
So, Miner, it's very, very clear. So the way that I understand it, and I'm not a doctor, but I understand that an anxiety attack tends to be when your body is very overwhelmed with something that could be happening or is currently unfolding. A panic attack is typically when you're processing from the past. And I am a past processor. Just like how I've said, like, I'm a Band-Aid ripper offer, because I tend to move at the speed of light, I process later.
Heather McG (17:52)
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Rappaport (17:56)
So I was pretending like I was fine. I was pretending like the abuse that I was enduring in my marriage, which I did not have a physically abusive marriage. was mentally, emotionally, financially, all that kind of stuff. I just acted like it wasn't happening. And I kept trying to make somebody happy who didn't have the ability to be happy.
Certainly not with me. And I would wake up in the middle of the night with basically my body telling me like, Andrea, you are not okay. Like these things that you are going through every day, these things that this person whom you stupidly agreed to get into this business relationship with of marriage and had two babies with is killing you with the way that
the things that he says to you over and over again with ⁓ the lack of any kind of like physical affection with the fact that you're constantly told that you're not good enough, that you're not attractive, that you're not good enough for them. I mean, we were together for, like I said, 12 years. I think we had sex 10 times in 12 years.
Heather McG (19:15)
my gosh. That had to have been an awakening. Like when you moved on from that marriage and rejoined life or really started life for the first time it sounded.
Andrea Rappaport (19:24)
It was tough. Yes, was a very emotional experience to realize. I think there's also a lot of shame in talking about that stuff, right? Because you think, well, why does that matter? What are you, some kind of whore? What do you need? Because you want to do attention. Yes, I am. But I don't think we talk enough about what
Heather McG (19:42)
You're like, yes, I need more of it in my life.
Andrea Rappaport (19:52)
what a sexless relationship will do to someone. Because when you don't have that kind of connection and when you are in a relationship with somebody who constantly tells you that they don't want that with you and you're so...
uncomfortable and confused and you don't know whether it's because you're not enough. And do I need to change my hair? Do I need to go and lose more weight? It really, makes you crazy. And like I said, there were so many other things beyond that that were wrong in my first marriage. But certainly now I look at my life and those scars,
do not go away quickly. It's not the kind of thing that a little bit of Neosporin and a few therapy sessions take care of. I still have moments now in a very healthy and happy marriage where that little unhealthy girl inside of me creeps out and thinks like, is everything really bad here too? Because I don't have those skills. I wasn't taught those skills on how you resolve things.
Heather McG (21:01)
Yeah.
Right.
Andrea Rappaport (21:08)
on how if somebody doesn't agree with you, it doesn't mean that they hate you and think that you're worthless and they're not gonna threaten to leave you like I was used to hearing. ⁓ That trauma, and again, I hate using phrases that I feel like are so overused, Trauma. ⁓
Heather McG (21:26)
Yeah, yeah, I have a list of things. I'm like,
like narcissist. Are they diagnosed narcissist or are they just selfish? Everyone's a narcissist apparently.
Andrea Rappaport (21:36)
Right. I did a post once on social media that I'm like, they're only a narcissist if they come from the south of France. Everyone else is just a general asshole. ⁓ Yeah, we overuse those terms a lot. But I think that we all want those terms because we want, we feel more comfortable when we can go in a box, right? Yeah, I have trauma.
Heather McG (21:43)
I think I saw that one.
Yeah, when you can name it.
Andrea Rappaport (22:03)
because I was married to a narcissist, right? Because then it's like, okay, now I can go on TikTok and type in the words trauma healing and I will be, all the problems will be solved. And that's just not the way that it works. ⁓ But yeah.
Heather McG (22:12)
Great.
Right.
When, well
I'm curious, when you were in the middle, well it's kind of a two part question, when you were in the middle of your first marriage, did you recognize it as abuse or was there a day where you had like a light bulb moment of figuring out what was going on?
Andrea Rappaport (22:33)
I did not recognize it as abuse for a very long time. I had moments where I remember, ⁓ you know, I mentioned before that I had two little kids. So I was in these baby groups with other moms and we would go out to dinner and I would find myself pretending to relate to these women who were talking about their lives and the things that their husbands and them would do together.
And I would sit there and I had those moments of like, I wonder if something's wrong in my life because I'm scared of my husband and I don't get the feeling that these women are scared. And I would think like, would, and on the outside, my ex-husband came off as like very meek, very like very agreeable. And nobody really saw what was going on in our home.
Heather McG (23:24)
Yeah.
Andrea Rappaport (23:32)
And so I had moments where I'm like, this, I don't think that this feels good. But it wasn't until I got really, really sick and I had a few doctors say to me when we were trying to get to the root of what was going on, when we discovered that I had a panic disorder, it was not clear. At first, all what
All we knew is that I would wake up at 3 o'clock in the morning sweating and vomiting. Those were the first symptoms. you know, naturally we start testing all these different parts of my body. Is it your gallbladder? Is it this? Is it that? What's going on with Andrea? Why is she getting so sick? And it wasn't until months and months later where I had a doctor say, you know what, we're going to take all inflammatory out of your diet because I have an idea. I'm like, okay.
Heather McG (24:28)
Okay.
Andrea Rappaport (24:28)
So he took all inflammatories out of my diet and he said, come back to me after six weeks of doing it. Well, after doing that, I stopped vomiting and I just started shaking at three o'clock in the morning. And so then I was, you know, had all these different symptoms and I went into, I think it was urgent care at one day and I'm like, I don't know what's wrong with me, but I can't stop shaking and
And that's when it became clear that there was something psychological going on. It wasn't like medical. was like there's something going on in your brain. that was when I got back into therapy. got on, I saw, I started seeing a psychiatrist to get on medication to stop shaking when this would happen. But that's when I really started looking at
Heather McG (25:09)
Yeah.
Andrea Rappaport (25:24)
what's going on? What am I gonna do? Because during that phase, it got very dark, very scary. I started coming up with all of these theories as to why I was falling apart. I started coming up with all of these weird quirks, like I wasn't gonna eat past 5 p.m. every day. Every night I had to be home by 8 p.m.
Every night by nine, I had to be in bed with the covers pulled up to my chest and I had to have house hunters on TV in order for me to hopefully sleep without having a panic attack. ⁓ And I wasn't living, I was just clinging. And that went on for a while. And then it wasn't, I had one night that I talk about pretty publicly that was like the turning point for me when I realized
Heather McG (26:06)
Yeah, that sounds terrible.
Andrea Rappaport (26:20)
⁓ I'm not safe here. I gotta go. So ⁓ after that, that's when I really knew that this marriage was probably gonna kill me. I started blacking out. I would get so sick from vomiting, I would actually lose consciousness. ⁓ And I would fall and it was always in the bathroom, so I'd fall back and hit my head. ⁓
Heather McG (26:23)
Yeah.
Andrea Rappaport (26:50)
after one time of being brought to the ER, you know when they kick your spouse out of the room and start asking you the, you safe questions?
Heather McG (27:00)
Yeah, that somebody,
they're picking up on what's going on maybe better than you were.
Andrea Rappaport (27:05)
Whether you want to or not, here you are. When your life starts looking like a lifetime television for women movie, that's when you know, yeah, major thumbs down moment. That's when you're like, uh-oh, huh.
Heather McG (27:19)
Alright, so you come to that end, you make the decision to leave your marriage, you get divorced. What does rebuilding look like? Because that had to have been such an intimidating, and I guess I say this from point of shared experience because I know for me it was a huge undertaking. What was it like for you to start rebuilding your life? How did you do that?
Andrea Rappaport (27:23)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Well, you know, I think it's like building a home after you burn your house down. You know, you have to go and get the foundation. Like you gotta go and lay the foundation of like what you want your life to be like. Now I, and this is why I have my own podcast, I fucked up. Hopefully we can say that on your show. Sorry if we can't. I fucked things up big time when I got divorced because ⁓ I ripped off a bandaid.
Heather McG (27:57)
Yes, you can. All good.
Andrea Rappaport (28:06)
And I got really bad legal advice because I was scared and desperate and we spoiler alert, don't make the best decisions when you're scared and desperate. And because I waited for so long, I endured and I endured and I endured. And then when I was literally falling apart and in a hospital, I'm like, I think I need to get a divorce, right?
Heather McG (28:28)
way
past the point when when you should have yeah.
Andrea Rappaport (28:31)
⁓ yeah,
I'm like asking the janitor mopping the floors for advice. I'm like, excuse me, sir. do you know any good lawyers? ⁓ He didn't. But ⁓ I made a lot of mistakes and it cost me a lot of heartache, a lot of money. It hurt my kids a lot. so rebuilding for me was funky.
⁓ I moved on romantically very quickly, and that's not typical. But my husband, I actually met immediately after leaving the house. Actually, that's not even true. I went on. Okay, spoiler alert. It was the janitor in the hospital.
Heather McG (29:15)
waiting on the corner for you. He was like, I'm your second husband waiting for you. He was
the doctor. He was in the hospital as you decided to leave.
Andrea Rappaport (29:25)
⁓
yeah. I actually, when I decided that I was leaving, ⁓ and I actually had told my husband that I wanted a divorce and that this was done. My husband was like not very emotional about it. Like, I think he was, I don't, I don't really know what was going on on his end, but he was just like, okay, like he's a strange guy. Like he actually asked me for an exit interview.
That's a true story. Like zero stars. I don't know. what? Anyway, he's a quirky guy himself. ⁓ So when that was done, I got online immediately. And a lot of people would tell you not to do that. In fact, my podcast co-host cringes when I say that because she's like, fuck, do not tell people you did that because you should not do that. Well, I did it.
Heather McG (29:53)
You're like, do not recommend. Actually.
Andrea Rappaport (30:22)
And I don't know why I did it. I think I wanted to feel reassured that I wouldn't be alone for the rest of my life. I also think I loved the entertainment of looking at dating profiles online. The comedian in me found it.
Heather McG (30:39)
There's
some very entertaining profiles, I will say. I had a whole album on my phone of all the weird ones that I came across.
Andrea Rappaport (30:45)
We all
do. I mean, it was the FETs that was the, I genuinely think I got on partially for like the sport to kind of like distract myself, right? And I think, I think it was like five days after I got on Bumble, I came across Steve's profile and I don't know how it worked. I don't know how I was in such a dark,
Heather McG (30:55)
Yeah.
Andrea Rappaport (31:14)
because again, typically it does not work out that way. ⁓ But we started seeing each other and haven't stopped. And we got married. We got married and blended our families. And this person has been very supporting and somehow, and again, this is the tricky part.
Heather McG (31:17)
Yeah.
sorry.
Andrea Rappaport (31:43)
I was able to personally evolve and go through my own stuff and did not drag him along for a lot of that. We didn't live together, obviously, for a very long time. I had lots of time by myself. I went through all of the scary, painful moments of not being with your kids and being totally alone.
and figuring out what am I going to do, who am I outside of being a mommy. That was probably the only hard part of me getting divorced was my kids because I wasn't emotionally attached to my first husband. ⁓ It was just a bad agreement. The kid part absolutely devastated me and was the most painful.
Heather McG (32:21)
You have it.
Andrea Rappaport (32:35)
the most painful thing. think because I didn't know how you do this. Like I didn't understand how you could have a baby and then one day sign a legal document agreeing to days where you have this baby and days where you don't. It made me angry and I lost my mind.
Heather McG (32:55)
Right. Yeah. Do you?
Well, especially when you're leaving due to abuse.
Andrea Rappaport (33:05)
Right. It felt very unfair. It felt wrong. And what's very challenging about our ⁓ system, especially where you and I live in Illinois, ⁓ mental and emotional abuse is a very gray area. is very...
Heather McG (33:25)
yeah, I was told they don't care. And like they said,
unless someone shows up at your house threatening to kill you or puts their hands on you, they don't care.
Andrea Rappaport (33:31)
And it is because they don't have the bandwidth to care, quite frankly. Now that I host a show that has a lot of legal insight from my partner, I'm able to see why they can't, they just don't, they're dealing, they are inundated with people getting punched in the face and broken ribbed and threatened that like.
Heather McG (33:52)
Yeah.
Andrea Rappaport (33:54)
They're like, we're sorry that this person is tormenting you and we're sorry for the cases where children are being tormented mentally and emotionally, but we can't do anything about it. They don't have the right. And I think what's also hard is it's like, if we try to build that infrastructure, I don't even know how that starts. Like we were talking, you were asking me about how do you rebuild your life?
Heather McG (34:04)
Yeah, no bandwidth.
Andrea Rappaport (34:17)
I would love to fix the problem in that system. How do I help this system rebuild to actually help more families and other children who are in the middle of a really high conflict situation because you've got some unhealthy people divorcing each other? I was not the healthiest person. Like I said, I made a lot of mistakes. Some of the mistakes I made are embarrassing.
the ways that I behaved and the things that I did because you're at your worst.
Heather McG (34:49)
Well, I think so many people, you're touching on something that I think almost everyone who has gone through a divorce goes through and really through a lot of situations like these that might be adjacent. Cause you feel so much shame and you feel so embarrassed about the things you did, but it's like your life just fell apart. What do you, what do you think you're going to walk out of the house and be perfect and amazing and everything's all good just by the act of walking out of the house? No, it takes years of really hard work to get to a good place.
Andrea Rappaport (35:15)
And we're always evolving. We're always trying to get better. And I think what's really hard is that we live in a world where we all want finished products, right? Those goddamn before and after pictures, right? But there's nothing finished. I don't have, there's not like, this was Andrea before and now look at me after. I'm still working on it.
Heather McG (35:29)
Yeah, people love it, yeah.
Come on, gold star.
Andrea Rappaport (35:43)
any day now. Every day I'm trying to be a little bit healthier, a little bit happier. I still have panic attacks. I still have panic attacks. Do you know how frustrating that is? When you look on paper at everything in your life and you're like, well, why are you still upset? Well, guess what, motherfucker? I still had these experiences in my past that sometimes still come back and haunt you at three o'clock in the morning. And because it's in our body.
It's just living in us. And yes, it's not as frequent as it used to be. And typically it's when I'm reminded of something, like if there's a particularly challenging day with my ex-husband and the kids, or if there's some other things going on in my world that are like very painful and are a nod at something from my past, right? That's when you have it. But we're never done.
Heather McG (36:37)
No, well, and to there's something which I kind of want to loop back to you're talking about how your podcast partner would cringe like don't tell people you got out there dating right away. But that is pretty common. Like I for me, I saw two kinds of people people that like waited like a year or two to start dating, which Wow. And the second sort that like get right back out there. I was the second sort.
Andrea Rappaport (36:55)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Heather McG (36:59)
Immediately
started dating lots of dumpster fire dating my partner was not sitting on the corner waiting for me mine took about two years two or two and a half years to show up on my case But the way I remember my friends were horrified. They're like just just sit there just sit there Don't don't be trying to date just like process what's happened to you try to be alone and the thing that I didn't have the words to explain to them back then for me When you have been so starved for love
for positive attention when you've been told you're like a piece of gum in the street for so long, you are desperate for some sort. And it's not, I'm not saying this is healthy and good, but it's just the reality of the situation. You want some attention, you want some validation, and that's why there's a whole stereotype of wild divorces out there on the dating scene.
Andrea Rappaport (37:44)
Yeah, it's human nature to want to be wanted. And I think for me, because I didn't have, I would always say like, didn't have a real marriage. Like we were technically married, but like we didn't do things together, just the two of us. Well, there was no, I was scared a lot of the time, terrified of what version of this person was gonna come through the door.
Heather McG (37:55)
Yeah.
Andrea Rappaport (38:11)
Would he speak to me that day? Would he not? Would I get berated and on the car ride home from the grocery store because I spent too much money on something that he did not approve of? I, you know, like whatever it was. And so when I, it's funny how on so many levels I was ready.
Heather McG (38:25)
Yeah.
Andrea Rappaport (38:33)
to date and I really like welcomed it. And then on the other hand, I see why when you're walking through a burning building, it's pretty selfish to wanna drag another person through that with you. Like, hey, my house is on fire. Do you wanna tour? And they're like, it's warm. And it's funny, cause I remember my Steve, my husband ⁓ now saying to me when,
Heather McG (38:47)
It's nice and crispy in there.
Andrea Rappaport (38:58)
we first got on the phone to do the whole, want to make sure you're not crazy call, which I love that. Right. But what I love, my husband tells me this now, but I'm like, like, I love that you thought that you could vet someone in 15 minutes, like whether they're nuts, like what kind of system do you have? Cause we need to bottle it and sell it. ⁓ that first phone call that he thought was going to be 15 minutes ended up being two and a half hours. And he was like, not that interested in meeting.
Heather McG (39:04)
Those are important.
Mm-hmm.
Andrea Rappaport (39:28)
Like I don't know why he like actually agreed to talk to me, but he's like, look, I've dated a woman going through a divorce before. It didn't end well. I don't really want to do this again. And there's something about you and everything and your pictures and your profile that I really, really liked, but I'm not sold. then we did end up meeting and I was sold right from the...
Heather McG (39:35)
Yeah.
Andrea Rappaport (39:54)
Like I looked at this guy and it was, our chemistry was just like magnetic. The way that we laughed together. The way that I felt so, I felt like the universe was throwing me a bone for how bad things were for so long. Then I'm like, I cannot let this go. Like if the universe is like,
saying, you go, Andrea. I would be a fool to be like, well, maybe later. I'm not really hungry. I was starving.
Heather McG (40:22)
Mm-hmm Yeah, I mean at that point you
are you really are the you are It really is a miracle like in you telling your story like there are so many aspects Aspects of this that are really truly miraculous because I mean both been there We both talked to hundreds if not thousands of divorced women like we know what it's like out there So I am very happy for you after going through so much That the universe did you a solid finally?
Andrea Rappaport (40:51)
You need it, you deserve it. And I think the other big thing for me is here, my God, I'm like, I could feel the tears coming out of my body. ⁓
I am honored that I get to, ⁓ my God, I am honored that I get to be the kind of mommy that I didn't have.
Heather McG (41:12)
Yeah.
Andrea Rappaport (41:12)
because that is the most beautiful healing journey that anybody can ask for because there is no job that is more important, no title, no bucket to be in that is more important than being a parent. And I feel I'm...
very proud of the work that I have done on myself to be the mommy that I'm able to be to my two little boys and help them navigate a complicated situation. And just the other day I was tucking ⁓ my little one who's eight into bed and he was telling me that I am his safe space.
Heather McG (42:02)
Wow. I can imagine.
Andrea Rappaport (42:05)
And I thought.
Thank God, you know? And I don't want my babies to know that mommy didn't have a safe space. We do, you we talk about a little bit of that like in bits and pieces and you know, it's not my job to tell them about, you know, the things that happen with mommy and daddy. Kids learn on their own.
kids get the score at some point. And that also is heartbreaking because on some level, like you don't want your babies to know that one of their parents is maybe not the healthiest individual, but my God, they figure that out. They figure it out faster than you think they will. They do.
Heather McG (42:50)
Can I ask
you when you became a mom because I know for me When I became a mom that was really clarifying because I think for a long time I gave my childhood a lot of passes.
What was it like when you became a mom? How did you look at your childhood differently in that moment?
Andrea Rappaport (43:07)
Well, I think that there was a lot that I blocked out from my childhood, which is I think why I had so many panic attacks when I was older, because I skipped over uncomfy moments. So I remember having a lot of early on as a parent where I'm like, I don't know that I ever experienced this on either end. And then slowly these memories would come back. And I think for me, it was just like, OK.
I have a gift right now, is I have the ability to break the chain and I can do things differently. And I also found it challenging and scary to give what you were never given. And I had moments where I felt angry that I didn't have a roadmap and I felt angry that I didn't have anybody to call.
to ask for advice or to lean on or somebody to come over and help you fold baby clothes or talk to you about postpartum depression and anxiety. But then I also thought, Andrea, you've been doing your whole life on your own and so many ways for so long. You can do this. And I did it.
leaned on. I leaned on shows. You know, I think that's one of the reasons why I think you and I are both so passionate about what we do professionally, because we know how important it is to offer some guidance and a safe place for people to go, because we are not the only ones. Even if you do have a mom, even if you do, and for let me state for the record, I have an amazing father.
Heather McG (44:46)
Yeah.
Andrea Rappaport (44:59)
who has always been very supportive and very loving and has done everything that he can do. But even if you have two healthy parents, there are people who still need more and feel lost and lonely. And it's important that they have a place where they can go and hear other stories and get some actionable.
I didn't have things to do so that they feel like, okay, I know I'm going in the healthiest direction possible. And that's, it's important for everyone to know is that even as a parent, when you make these mistakes, it's never too late.
Heather McG (45:37)
Well, it's like for you, you wouldn't have even known that there was a better life out there if your friends hadn't talked about their marriages and their lives. You wouldn't have even known that it could be better.
Andrea Rappaport (45:50)
I would not have known. And it started, you know, when I was a little girl, I used to watch TV sitcoms to learn how to behave. And I would imitate what I saw on TV, because that was all, that was, I thought that was real, you know? And then when I got older and started having real relationships, I would see like, ⁓ I don't think that what I have is so healthy.
And that's tricky nowadays because we tell people now, don't look at social media. Social media is fake and it is. everybody just posts their life highlights and not what's really going on. But when you really talk to people and you really see people's struggles and how other people resolve conflict, that for me,
was very different. And one of the things that I talk about a lot now is when you think about your partner, do you get a yummy feeling in your stomach or do you get a yucky feeling? Listen to that, right? Like that's that little flag. When you see your partner's name calling you on your phone, do you think like, my God, yay? Or do you think fuck them? Don't ignore that.
Heather McG (46:52)
Yeah.
Right? And
I remember too, one of the very, and this is gonna sound, you know, this makes us sound like we have never like left our home and life, but when you're leaving abusive situations, this is literally like how far you have to go. I remember one of my biggest questions I started asking myself when I was rebuilding how I approached relationships after divorce. Do you like this person? Do they like you? Not like, there's chemistry and, first.
Do you like them and do they like you? And it's like, that's how basic, like sometimes you have to go. Cause I will even say like with some of the people in my community and you know, there's a divorce community, but then there's also people who are married and unhappy and you hear all these stories and it's like, well, I can tell you guys don't even like each other. Like it's very obvious. Like what are you doing here? Now.
Andrea Rappaport (47:54)
That's
scary though for people. I think that that's a really hard thing for people to admit because then it kind feels like the gun pops off and you're off to the races. If I admit right now that I don't like this person, then what am I saying about my life and what am I prepared to act on?
It's easier to pretend like it's not happening. Because if I admit to my girlfriends over our morning walk that like, yeah, I'm not really happy. Well, then everyone in that circle is going to hold me accountable. And I'm not ready to do anything. And that's one of the reasons why I think, again, it's so great that we have
Heather McG (48:30)
Right.
Andrea Rappaport (48:38)
these communities online. People can listen to your show. They can listen to my show. They don't have to talk about it. They're just in the gathering information stage. Your show is so great because it gives people that ability to see, should I make a big scary decision, I will not be in that place forever. I will get to a happier place. It's an ending. What do they always say?
that joke about marriage, ⁓ marriage is like, it's not the end of an era, it's the end of an error, like something like that. Right? And like, and it doesn't mean that your marriage was always wrong, it just means that at a certain point, it's not the healthiest choice. One of the things that I said once is, I hate when people refer to a divorce as a failed marriage. It's like one of my pet peeves.
Heather McG (49:15)
No. I think I have heard that, yes.
Thanks.
Andrea Rappaport (49:37)
because I said a failed marriage is when you forget to mail in your marriage certificate and it's not actually legal. That's a failed marriage because you attempted to get married but you're an idiot and you failed. Getting divorced just means that you made, you're making a decision to be the happiest and healthiest version of yourself and for your whole family.
Heather McG (49:55)
Right.
Andrea Rappaport (50:05)
And that means to no longer be married to this person. That's not failing. That's evolving. And we're supposed to applaud that and not put people in that box of, failed.
Heather McG (50:11)
Yeah.
Right. One of my sister put whenever I was like considering like do I really do this? Do I really move on? My sister said to me and I'm never gonna forget this the whole idea if you only get one life is real Is this how you want the rest of your life to go and that's something you need to decide right now and I don't know when you put it that way. It's like it's real like losing time losing your life to a Situation where you were desperately unhappy or it's unhealthy
⁓ switching gears just a little bit we are coming up towards the end but I do want to look back on this because I think that this is important and I think I'm personally invested because I had the relationship with my dad that you had with your mom in certain ways and Did you ever want to or did you ever get a chance to confront your mom about the things that had happened or to find any sort of? Resolution
Andrea Rappaport (50:57)
Mm-hmm.
So I think what is important to understand for people who are navigating something similar is that you cannot have a productive conversation with somebody who's pretty mentally unwell. ⁓
I am at peace. I don't have any anger towards my mom whatsoever. ⁓ I think that my mom did the very, very best that she could given the limited resources that she had. My mom had an even worse childhood. My mom was really, really badly abused by her parents. ⁓ And I think that
I came to a point where I did go through a phase where I attempted to have conversations that did not go well. And then you realize the common phrase is like, you can't reason with crazy. I'm not, I hate saying that because I think it's really easy. We always say that women with issues are crazy and that always, that kind of bugs me, right? Because I'm not crazy, damn it. If one more person, I'll show you crazy.
Heather McG (52:25)
Yeah. I'll show you. ⁓
Andrea Rappaport (52:33)
But I think that's kind of like a cheap way out, right? I think that I had my moment, I had my final moment, ⁓ and I was able to speak to her when she was not able to respond because she was in like a medically induced coma. This is sounding like a soap opera. And next on General Hospital. I swear this was my life.
Heather McG (52:58)
haha
Andrea Rappaport (53:01)
But she was not well in the hospital and I went to see her and I certainly, I didn't stand over her bed and say, these are all the things you did wrong. I just told her that I loved her and that I know she did the very best she could and that I want nothing but for her to be at peace and okay and that I am okay.
And then I walked out of the room and obviously like started sobbing and totally lost my shit because I think I knew that that would be the last time that I would see her. And it has been, and that was a very long time ago. And...
You know, I think sometimes you have to just know when you've had enough and things don't always get better for everybody. Some people are not capable of getting better and you have to know when are you, someone has to change in order for the situation to change. It's either gonna come from you or come from them. And I know like for,
I mean, I know like we've talked offline, like you've had moments too where you kind of had to decide, what am I gonna do? Because you don't wanna carry around that pain with you forever. And I also think like it's tricky, right? Because I don't know that either one of us can tell people, and this is how you do it. Because just like everything else, we're still figuring it out.
Heather McG (54:23)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think if I were to tell someone, something about Andrea's show that I really love is she always finishes with actionable takeaways. And I think we're moving right into that. Takeaways for people at rock bottom. And I think to answer your question, my actionable advice to someone is there is no prescription. There is no step one, step two, step three. What I think the prescription might be is put one foot in front of the other. Don't get stuck.
where you are, like the tiniest of steps, as long as you are going somewhere and moving forward, things are gonna get better for you, I think.
Andrea Rappaport (55:13)
Yeah. I would add also that when you remain physically paralyzed, your brain will remain paralyzed. So as simple as it sounds, move your body. Move your body, go walk. Go walk. I mean, even while you listen to these podcasts that I hope you all are listening to, walk. Just walk.
Heather McG (55:31)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea Rappaport (55:41)
I also think that if you have a lot of thoughts, you deserve to be sharing those thoughts with somebody who's licensed to hear them. And somebody who's an actual professional is probably going to do a better job of giving you guidance than your drunk friend, Brenda. ⁓ know, Brenda's are great for getting skinny margarito recipes from, but they might just tell you what they did in their situation. And it's not a one size fits all.
Heather McG (55:49)
Yeah.
Right.
Andrea Rappaport (56:10)
⁓ You need to go to someone who knows what to... Just like how Heather said, I can't give you a prescription, right? Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of girlfriends out there who care about you so much, they want to give you their prescription.
Heather McG (56:27)
Right, which may or may not be actually helpful.
Andrea Rappaport (56:31)
No, but then it all comes from a good place because as women, we hate seeing other women suffer. We want to make it better. It's uncomfortable watching somebody at rock bottom. it's okay if you lose a lot of friends while you are in this place because it's very hard for friends to watch people suffer and it doesn't mean that they're bad people. It's just human nature. It's hard to see.
You will either get those friends back when you're better or you'll make different friends. You can't blame people for not wanting to be on your couch every night while you're unraveling. There's only so much of it that they can watch.
Heather McG (57:12)
Yeah, well, I'm actually, I'm glad you brought that up because I think anyone who's been through a divorce or a major life change, that happens. You're gonna lose friends, whether just a few or a lot. And I think it's easy to be like, wow, my life is even more falling apart. But I actually see that as a sign as you're getting better because these big life changes in my view, crack you open. Like I know for me, the person I am today is not the person I maybe made friends with 10 years ago. I'm not the same.
Andrea Rappaport (57:23)
Yeah.
Totally.
Heather McG (57:42)
So I think to me, the act of waking up, the act of getting better, you are gonna lose friends, but part of that is because you are getting better. You just may not be a fit for that person anymore. And not to take that to your point to heart, or let that make you feel bad about yourself. People move on, and guess what? Things end, and that doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
Andrea Rappaport (58:04)
Absolutely, I agree.
Heather McG (58:06)
Well, thank you so much for being here today, Andrea. And thank you everyone else for listening. Now, where can people find you, Andrea, if they want to work with you, hear more from you?
Andrea Rappaport (58:15)
So I think the best thing to do is check out the podcast, which is called How Not to Suck at Divorce. Again, this is for people who are thinking that maybe they want to go through a divorce or are already in the process. ⁓ Take a listen. We are here to help you. You can find me on all social media outlets and Instagram, TikTok, all the places. ⁓ And that's it. Just listen. Take a listen. We're here.
Heather McG (58:44)
Yeah, and just so everyone knows too, Andrea's podcast, what I love about it is it is both very actionally helpful, it's very practical, but it's fun. It's fun to listen to as well, which I think you gotta hit both, and Andrea does. All right, so thank you to everyone listening to the Happily Never After today, especially those who are on your own journey, and we hope you have an awesome week. See you next week!