Freedom from Hidden Prisons with Shaka Senghor
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Description
Shaka Senghor is a resilience expert and bestselling author who shares his transformative journey from incarceration to freedom. Shaka discusses the hidden prisons we all face, the importance of vulnerability, and how shame and guilt can hinder personal growth. He reflects on his early life, the role of reading and writing in prison, and the impact of solitary confinement. Shaka emphasizes the power of active journaling, mindfulness, and creating safe environments for children, ultimately defining freedom as being present and embracing joy.
About Shaka Senghor
Shaka is a resilience expert, bestselling author, and speaker whose journey from incarceration to transformation has connected with audiences worldwide. Born in Detroit amid economic hardship, he spent 19 years in prison before finding his own path to freedom. Today, he shares the frameworks that transformed his life, helping executives, entrepreneurs, and athletes break free from their own invisible barriers. His mission is to show that everyone can achieve freedom and create a life full of possibility, purpose, and joy.
Follow Shaka on Instagram at @shakasenghor
Learn more at shakasenghor.com
About Heather McG
Heather is an Emmy and Cannes Lion Grand Prix-winning producer, author, and founder of McG Media. She is the creator of the happily never after, a 360-degree project that explores how life’s endings can lead to a new beginning. A twin mom, endurance athlete, and devoted Trekkie, sitting still has never been her forté.
Transcript
Heather McG (00:20)
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Happily Never After, a podcast where we explore how life's endings can lead to a new beginning. If you enjoy the show, don't forget to rate, review, and follow us wherever you are listening or watching the show today. Now my guest today is Shaka Senghor, and I'm so happy to welcome you to the show. Shaka is a resilience expert, a bestselling author and speaker whose journey from incarceration to transformation has connected with audiences.
Worldwide. Born in Detroit amid economic hardship, he spent 19 years in prison before finding his own path to freedom. the frameworks that transformed his life, helping executives, entrepreneurs, and athletes break free from their own invisible barriers. He has a new book that's coming out, and at the time this airs, it will have just come out, and this is a book that everyone can go pick up. It's titled, How to Be Free, A Proven Guide to Escaping Life's Hidden Prisons.
Shaka Senghor (01:08)
Yeah.
Heather McG (01:15)
Shaka's mission is to show that everyone can achieve freedom and create a life full of possibility, purpose, and joy. so happy to welcome you to the show today.
Shaka Senghor (01:25)
I'm super excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Heather McG (01:29)
Yeah, no, I, you know, and I will tell everyone I have read Chaka's book and it is amazing. It is very actionable. It tells a really great, compelling story. you really connect it to real life experiences, but it's also something that I know for me, I got a lot out of reading it and things to think about and to try in my own life. And I love that. I love it when it's something I can take away and I can work on in my own life as well. So thank you for that.
Shaka Senghor (01:51)
Thank you so much for saying that that actually makes me really happy and it means that I really achieved the goal that I set out to is I really wanted people to not only, you know, understand my backstory and some of the things I've had to overcome, but how do these things apply to your life? What are the hidden prisons that exist and the way that you've experienced life? And then what are some lessons and some takeaways and some exercises that are very practical on the surface? But when you start to really dig deep into them, you realize like this is some of the most powerful
Stuff that you can have at your disposal, so I'm really excited about that and I'm happy that that it was really resonating that way
Heather McG (02:27)
Yeah, I really especially love and I'm like jumping way ahead. So we're to backtrack a little bit and start at the beginning. But just quickly, I will say I especially loved what you talked about with vulnerability, shame and guilt because to me, and a lot of that, have a lot of conversations around those subjects here on this show. And I have just become so convinced in what a huge impact those three traits can have on everyone's life, especially shame.
Shaka Senghor (02:48)
Yeah, absolutely. And it shows up like not only in our personal life, but in our work life and business. And, you know, that's one of the things when I was writing that particular part of that particular chapter of the book, it was like, man, how many different ways the same show up and how does it impede, you know, our progress when it comes to living the life that we really want. And that's why I really wanted to articulate that in that that chapter and really.
Heather McG (02:55)
Yeah.
Shaka Senghor (03:13)
help people recognize the difference between shame and failure and like what does that really do to you beneath the surface. So I'm happy these things are really resonant and I know your audience is this is the type of stuff that people are really thinking about. So I'm happy we can get a chance to have a real discussion around.
Heather McG (03:30)
Yeah.
Yeah, digging into things that impact our life in such a big way and being open to really looking at it and making those changes so your life can be better moving forward. Now, going back to the beginning, Shaka, can you share a little bit about your story about what was happening in your life back in the early 90s?
Shaka Senghor (03:42)
Absolutely.
Yeah, that's a great question. know, you know, especially at this time in my life with this particular book, you know, I'm always reflective of like, how did the journey began and where did these lessons come from? And I think it's important for audience to really understand why I am really positioned as someone who can really share in a real authentic way how these lessons have applied. So I grew up in the city of Detroit at the time when crack was just invading the Midwest crack cocaine and
You know, we now see a epidemic of like fentanyl opioids and we see how that's devastating the country. That was the world of what it was like growing up in a crack epidemic in this community that on the looking in was the model for middle class and working class America. You know, my dad was in the military, in the Air Force, and he worked for the state as well. My mom was a homemaker, but they had challenges and those challenges showed up in how they raised their children. You know, we grew up.
navigating abuse and some of the stuff I talk about in the book, which, know, at this stage of my life is important to tell the whole story of specifically like my mother. as a kid when I was navigating the abuse at home, what I didn't understand was her path and her background and her story and why she showed up the way she did. you know what that experience led was me running away, you know, and I was this, you know, the smart kid.
You know, I really had this big dream of being a doctor and being an artist and I found myself seduced into the drug trade. You know, and I use that word seduce specifically because oftentimes when we think about the end result, which is someone ended up in prison, we never really think about the early part of that journey and how these young kids, you know, they run away from home and they think that they're going to safety and then they find themselves in this very adult world. And that was my experience. You know, I was 13, 14 years old.
⁓ in a very adult world, a very scary world, a world where my childhood friend was murdered very early on. I was robbed at gunpoint. I was beaten nearly to death. And, you know, I never forget what it was like just laying on a cold bathroom floor in a pool of my own blood and asking myself this question, what type of world do we live in? What this happens to children? And, you know, despite that, I continued on in that, in that culture, ⁓ in about three years into being.
You know, in the streets, I got shot multiple times. And then about 16 months later, I shot and tragically caused a man's death, which is, you know, it's one of the most regrettable life decisions I've ever made, you know, and one that I live with to this day. You know, was subsequently arrested. I was charged with open murder and sentenced to 17 to 40 years in prison for a second degree murder.
And ultimately I ended up spending a total of 19 years in prison and seven of those years and solitary confinement, which is 23 hour lockdown, five days a week and 24 hour lockdown, other two days a week. And, you know, tragically, you know, and within the midst of this most barbaric environment, I was fortunate to really find a pathway to my authentic self.
And, you know, I say tragically because, you know, as a kid, when I reflect back and I think about the different pathways my life could have taken, unfortunately, it was discovering my true self under the most harshest of circumstances. it ended up becoming a space and opportunity that I was like, I can decide what the rest of my life looks like. And it really has led.
me to this particular book. You know, I've written multiple books, but this book in particular really comes out of understanding the power of transformation under extreme circumstances.
Heather McG (07:44)
Now in your book, you talk quite a bit about reading and writing. Can you say a little bit more here? I was really impacted by the way you talked about that. Can you talk about the role that reading and writing and the way that you experienced that while you were in incarceration, what that did for you?
Shaka Senghor (08:00)
You know, it's one of the conversations that's come up for me a lot, specifically since I've written this book. And what I've really come to understand is that I was extremely lucky. And what I mean by that is sometimes we hear people talk about the luck of being born in the right zip code or the luck of being born in the right family. You know, if you're born into a family of wealth and influence and all those things, we talk about that kind of the luck of birth.
For me, the luck was being literate. In prison, the average reading grade level was third grade. And I was really fortunate that I went into that environment already literate. And even though I didn't have any interest in reading, I wouldn't know until later how lucky I was that I could read. And what happened for me was that I met these incredible mentors, these men who were serving life sentences.
And they just saw something redeemable in me when I didn't see it in myself. I was an angry, broken little boy trying to navigate this environment. And they saw that my life was heading down a worse path than I was already on. thought I was, I thought I had already made the worst of it. But in their wisdom, they knew it could get that much worse. And so they just leaned in, you know, and they provided me with books and early on those books were not the philosophical books I would come to read later.
They were, you know, urban novels and books about the streets and underbelly of street life and inner city culture, you know, written by authors like Donald Gorns and Iceberg Slim, who was writing in the 60s and, you know, in the 50s. But those books mesmerized my young mind. And then when those books ran out, that's when they started giving me more purposeful books. was, you know, Malcolm X's autobiography, which really led me to being curious about the world.
and aspiring to be intelligent, like he made being smart seem cool. And so I fell in love with reading the dictionary and understanding the etymology of words. so by the time I started writing, all of that experience as a reader really began to pay off.
Heather McG (10:06)
You know, one thing also that I've been reading in your book, I, can you say a little bit about, you spent so much time, like you spent multiple years in solitary confinement, which, you know, as a society we talk about now about the ethics of that. what was that experience like for you and what is your perspective on that now?
Shaka Senghor (10:29)
Yeah, you know, it's one of the cruelest things that we do to human beings in American society. And I say that not because people shouldn't be held accountable for the decisions that they make that causes harm to others. But I say it as ⁓ a country that talks about our personal responsibility when it comes to what do we do with people who are inside these carceral systems in prison. And what I experienced and what I witnessed was horrendous.
A lot of the people who end up doing long-term time in solitary confinement have pre-existing mental health challenges. And because the systems aren't equipped to really provide the therapeutic outlets that are needed, the way that they deal with it is by just throwing people into a cell and hiding them from the rest of the world. And because we don't have a lot of visibility into that environment, what we end up seeing is this high level of abuse.
and harm that is almost permanent. And in many cases it is permanent. Nobody leaves that environment without their scars, myself included. And so what I experienced was literally this cruelty of how do we treat people who at some point will rejoin us in society? And to think about, we can hold people accountable without damaging them beyond repair.
And we also have to think as a society that over 90 % of people who are incarcerated will at some point get out. And we get a chance to decide who they are when they come home. Or at least we get a chance to contribute to who they are when they come home. And what I can assure you of is that most people who come out of solitary confinement do not come out as a thought evolved, enlightened, transformed human being.
And again, I was lucky going into that environment. Literate changed my life. It gave me an opportunity to transform solitary into purposeful solitude. And that is something that I always have to differentiate with people because sometimes they're like, well, solitary confinement worked out for you. And I'm like, no, it wasn't the solitary confinement. It was the choices that I was able to make because I was highly literate. And I began to construct
my environment as if I was at a university. And so I would study different subjects, you know, throughout the day, I would have a very structured format, you know, our philosophy, our, you know, African history, our world history. I even tried to study Spanish at one point, and I didn't get super far. But I can I can definitely understand some Spanish as a result. And
Heather McG (13:00)
Hahaha
Shaka Senghor (13:06)
You know that that ability to one recognize that I needed to put some structure around my days like that just came from from being literate and then the other part for me was like this deeper dive I took into what does it mean to be a human who has fallen from grace and what does it mean to pick yourself back up and puts yourself back together so that you can return to society as an asset instead of a liability.
like that required some of the exercise that I actually share in a book, which is, know, active journaling, you know, not just kind of ⁓ a set it and forget it or deal, but more like, you know, who do you want to be when you come out on the other side of this notepad? That was like super, you know, integral to my transformation and to empower me to become the person that I am today.
Heather McG (13:53)
Now how was, I believe if I read correctly that you, I believe, applied for parole three times and then you were released. What was that like?
Shaka Senghor (14:01)
Yeah, it was really interesting. Like, like going into my first parole hearing, I wasn't too up or too down about it. You know, I knew that I did not have a, I didn't, I wasn't not what they would call a model prisoner throughout the 19 years I was incarcerated. got into tons of trouble in the early part of the first eight years of my incarceration. I got into, you know, so much, you know, mischief and chaos. And I mean, I accumulated like about 35 misconducts.
Um, no, think 36 during throughout the entirety of my incarceration and like 34 of those or 35 of those came like in the first five or six years. So I just was not that that person. And so I knew that, that, because we lived in a, in a system that is very punitive, that there was a possibility that I wouldn't get out the first time. And, know, when I went into that hearing, it lasted about 60 seconds and I was like, well, I'm sure I'm not getting out. And at that point, you know, I had written.
written or contributed to like three books. And you know, I had a business plan I was ready to execute on and they denied me. The second time the hearing went a lot better, you know, and I felt confident and I got, I got really up and I thought that I was going to get this opportunity. And then they denied me and it was a hard crash. And it was one of those moments where I really had to
think about how do I mostly navigate this space? Like, do I get excited? Do I lean into the possibility that at one point I'll be free? Or do I just say, you know, whatever happens, happens? And I mean, I almost decided not to go back. At that point, I had 18 years in, I knew how to do time, and the hardest thing was watching my family suffer. And I was like, you know, I don't know if I wanna take them through this again. But I decided to go back.
And when I went back and got that parole, I was like, it blew my mind. Like I was like, could not believe, I was like, man, I'm actually going home. And then it was like, okay, now what do you do? You've been gone all these years and how do you navigate that world? know? But how do you navigate life after prison?
Heather McG (16:07)
Yeah. Now for you, you have the new book and you've published multiple books. You, I actually, I believe your first book you wrote while in prison and self published. So you've been, you've been at this for a while and your new book, which is so great. As I mentioned, it's titled how to be free, a proven guide to escaping life's hidden prisons. Can you say a little bit about what's the premise of this new
Shaka Senghor (16:29)
Yeah, the big idea here is that we all have hidden prisons, but all prisons have doors. And what those prisons look like is it's anger that you hold on to that doesn't allow you to show up fully and joyfully as a human being. It's shame that gets triggered when you're in a situation where maybe you haven't done your best, but then you start to pile on based on old experiences that were unresolved, grief, which is one of the hardest prisons to get out of.
And it's one that most of us, if we live long enough, will actually experience. And not just grief of somebody passing, but the grief of opportunities lost, love lost, the grief of youth passing us by. In many ways, this is one of the things where we find ourselves in a cycle of regret over and over about things that we no longer have control over. And so the idea for me was that
Having served real time in prison, one of the things that I discovered is that I was incarcerated before I ever stepped foot inside a prison cell. And I was incarcerated because I bought into an idea of a limited life outcome. I could only end up dead or in prison before I was 21. And what I realized while I was in prison that most of my incarceration was really mental more than anything.
And so I was free before I ever walked out of that prison cell before they ever paroled me and told me I was going home. I had already set myself free because I unlocked some things in my mind through journaling. And I mean, like when I talk about journaling, I'm not just talking about, hey, jot down, you know, five things you want to accomplish this week and you're done. I'm talking about getting so real with yourself that it's scary. And then
you know, walking through that fear and facing that fear and saying, listen, I deserve to be a whole human being. I deserve to see all of who I am, my flaws, my failures, my weaknesses, my strengths, my triumphs. And then I can sort out what I'm responsible for versus what happened to me. And that experience really
You know, when I began to look back on my life, post incarceration, which I've been out for 15 years now, and I've navigated so many incredible spaces. And what I found in my experience is that all the things that I was suffering from before I went to prison, people who've never been in prison are suffering from limiting beliefs, self doubt, low self worth, shame from the past, trauma from childhood.
broken relationships with parents, broken hearts that haven't been mended. And people would just come up to me when I would be out selling my other books and they would pour out, I mean, just these deep, intimate, vulnerable experiences that they always would preface with like, I've never shared this with anybody else. But because of your storytelling, the way you show up, you've invited me to share.
what is going on in my life and what's been holding me back. And oftentimes it kind of cuts across three really interesting areas. It is marital problems. And I would always just say, I have no, you know, I can't support you there. I can listen to a great listener, but I have no wise advice. And I mean, I'm recently married, so I'm like, I'm a newbie in this thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm starting this.
Heather McG (19:45)
Hahaha!
I like I am on the learning about this train as well on that front.
Shaka Senghor (19:58)
and I'm trying to figure it out now. And the other part would be around their children navigating addiction, you know, especially in, you know, with fentanyl and opioids. I mean, I can't even tell you how many parents or grandparents, you know, have really come up to me and just talked about what they're navigating with their children. And it's mind blowing and it's, you know, it's scary, you know, I'm a dad.
And another thing is suicidal ideation. Like there's a lot of people who are navigating, you know, that they wanted to end their life or they attempted to end their life. And when I got started getting into these conversations and got to the root of it, it was never what they thought was the driving force. It was always something deeper beneath the surface, something that happened in early childhood.
And it ran the spectrum, know, physical abuse, child abuse, sexual abuse, know, ⁓ just domestic violence, like you name it. People are really going through it. And there's no, we just haven't created a safe space in society for people to really talk about the things that L them in an honest way. And especially with men, like it's so tough for men to be vulnerable.
But it's exactly why I decided to be as vulnerable as possible in this work, because I really wanted to invite men into the conversation as well.
Heather McG (21:22)
Yeah, I mean, you're you're making me think about all the people we've talked about here because so many every single guest that has been on the show has a story that I would say is difficult to tell. You know, it's super personal. is, you know, it is really interesting because, you know, and the reason I kind of zoned in on shame and guilt is because it's been such a present thing across the show with every single guest, you know, things you're talking about abuse, trauma, suicide, grief, all of these things. And there is this element of
shame and having a hard time talking about it. the kind of the interesting thing is once people start talking about it and opening up, like to me that I know for me that's how I heal. Like in talking about connecting to other people and feeling understood and heard and learning from their experiences. It's like that's how you move forward step by step and it does take a lot of time. But you're just making me think about that about it is so hard to talk about these things, especially for men. I definitely see that too. But
Shaka Senghor (22:00)
See you.
Heather McG (22:19)
if you can find a way to start opening up to your community. Otherwise, you're gonna stay where you are and it's not working for you.
Shaka Senghor (22:27)
Yeah, I mean you you you really are limiting yourself and that's exactly what a prison is right if you think about what is a prison it limits people's access to society it limits their access to normal Behaviors that are you know accepted as our societal way of way of existing right and it's the same thing when you have these mental prisons when you have these emotional prison psychological prisons, you're limiting yourself and
You know, I remember when I was writing the chapter on shame, one of the things that came up for me, I was working at this incredible tech company. mean, it was a rocket ship when I joined called Navon. When I first joined, was called TripAx, we changed the name to Navon. But I remember I had taken on a new role and I'm ambitious. know, I had to get to the roots of like, what was my driver?
⁓ but I'm, I'm, you know, was ambitious. It was my first time being a corporate. want to try on all the things and try on all the hats and push myself to the limits. And I took on a role as the VP of corporate comms at a time where we were transforming the company's name. I mean, we had so much equity in the old name, so this was a big undertaking. It was no small task. And I took on this role, because the, the, CEO.
He just loved how I thought about creating creativeness and storytelling. He offered me to roll and I jumped it. I didn't take that break that I should have took to assess whether this was the right role for me. there was tons of things that I, I, you know, looking back, should have did. I should have consulted with other people. What is it like working directly with the CEO? What is it like to work when you're, you know, changing a whole brand and intensity of it? But I took it on. I was excited and my first.
assignment was to create this video that tells the story of the new brand. And I embarked on this journey and I had been handed over the project to somebody else who started it. And there was a thing that I should have done, which was kill the project. When I saw that it was not going in the direction that was going to get the outcome that we were looking for. But instead I laid more into my creative side versus like my business side. And it was a failure.
You know, it was a failure. The CEO was not pleased with the video outcome. And I remember the shame I felt in our one-on-one when we walked through the different ways that I failed to rise to the level of what a VP of corporate comms should do. And it wasn't about him. Like he, I mean, he handled it with the most care, the most thoughtfulness and the greatest insights to ensure that I walked away with valuable lessons. It's so...
But it lingered. It was days. mean, I beat up on myself. I didn't want to get out of bed. I was soaking around the house. You know, I felt like, you know, I'm a creator. I'm a writer. I'm a bestselling author. And, you know, I've done talks on the biggest stages, like all this stuff that's, you know, we find to validate ourselves. And when I started to dig into it, I was like, it had nothing to do with that moment. You know, I had accomplished so much at that company in such a short amount of time.
I had stood up our employee resource groups. I had created space during a tough time around our company culture when the world was going to hell in a hand basket and created space for my colleagues to really be present with each other during the pandemic and all these other things. I had trained one of the most incredible sales teams and we were winning and generating revenue. So I had all these wins under my belt and this one little janky video erased it.
And that's when I was like, there's something deeper there. Let me dive into this, you know? And that's when I got down to it and I was like, this shame goes back to like my childhood and an experience I had, which I won't, you know, give away here because I think people will really connect to it when they read it. But it was like, ⁓ that's the real thing. That's the thing that every time there's something that comes up that challenges you.
Heather McG (26:26)
Yeah.
Shaka Senghor (26:31)
What you're going back to is this unresolved thing that you've never fixed. And it blew my mind when I got there and I was able to go back and I was able to listen to that little boy who had been hurt all those years ago and realize like, that's what the shame is attached to. That's what happens when you fail at a thing. It brings you back to that time when you thought that as a kid, you can protect yourself. And that wasn't even your responsibility. And like that, that's the power of.
what this book is.
Heather McG (27:01)
Well, and those moments are so wild to experience when you're having a big reaction to something and there's just something in your mind that you know it's about something else. And then you figure out what it was and you're like, wow, I thought I dealt with that. I thought I had moved on. It's still in there. And I just think it's really interesting when those experiences happen and you kind of figure out why you are, you know, it can look like making the same mistake over and over again or something you just can't let go of.
that there's something deeper going on in the moment when you figure out what's really going on there, I think can be both, sometimes it's little traumatizing, but that's the life-changing moment right there, is figuring out what's really going on with something that you're struggling with in your life.
Shaka Senghor (27:42)
Yeah, absolutely. And it's one of the things where, you know, when I think about the lessons that I share in the book, you know, it's kind of like having kids, you're not supposed to have a favorite, right? But I will say one of the exercises that I have found in my own life that I would say has been the most powerful for me is active journaling and journaling that requires you to take an action step.
Heather McG (27:53)
Hahaha
Shaka Senghor (28:11)
And that is how I unlocked all these things from my childhood that was really holding me back. And that had really imprisoned me very early in my life. And what that looked like for me is that as I began to think about journaling, I had started with an agreement with myself. And that agreement was only sit down to journal when you're ready to be 100 % honest with yourself.
And that means that you have to own all the things that you're responsible for. And you have to reassign responsibility to the people who are responsible for the harms that you've accepted as your own doing. And that was the first time I ever said that what happened to me in our household was abuse. Growing up in you know, in black culture, the way that we
even articulate our experiences through our childhood, this tough love, this discipline. You know, we don't talk about abuse. We don't talk about corporal punishment that extends beyond ⁓ a paddle on a buttock to a full-on beating as abuse. Like even our comedians, always joke about it. Like you can watch any other top comedians and they'll talk about growing up in a household where they would get hit.
for small things, would get smacked in the mouth, would get knocked upside the head. And we talk about it in this very humorous way because laughter is a part of our way of dealing with our pain. And so when I started journaling, I mean, I was getting so real that it was terrifying. And there was moments where I would wanna quit. And especially when I was dealing with my own anger and own shame and...
the things I was responsible for. And so, you know, the way that I've approached it in this book is like, you gotta get up in there, you you gotta get real, you gotta be willing to go on a journey. But I promise you, once you give yourself agency to do it, it is literally one of the most liberating forces in the world. And it completely changed how I saw life, how I saw myself.
what I knew that I was capable of after that and how it removed any doubt that my life would be amazing whether I got out of prison or not.
Heather McG (30:34)
Well, you're making me think about there, and this was some advice someone gave to me about journaling and writing. And she said, you know, if you can still feel that you're pulling your punch even a little bit, you haven't gone far enough. You haven't really gotten down to the root of whatever you are trying to investigate in yourself or in the whatever you're writing about. You've got to go all the way or you haven't gone far enough. That's really what's critical to making a change.
Shaka Senghor (30:59)
Absolutely. I mean, and that's one of the things that I, you know, I realized in the book when I was writing, I'm like, ⁓ man, I'm about to go, I'm about to go farther than I've ever gone before. Right. And I feel like I went pretty far in my other writings. You know, I write from a space of like, you know, emotional integrity. And so whatever comes up for me as I'm writing, it ends up on a page.
Not a lot is left on the cutting room floor. Maybe some metaphors and punch lines and similes, but the truth telling is like, when I was writing this book, I was like, okay, it's no turning back once you release this to the world. And especially some of the things that I had to open up and share with my parents, which was really difficult and very vulnerable. But.
For me, it was like the larger mission of thinking about those people who come up to me when I'm standing in line signing books or that send me messages or these kids that I get a chance to work with. And it's people from literally all walks of life. That's what's magical about storytelling is that it cuts through gender, it cuts through race, it cuts through class. And what I've found is that it doesn't matter where you sit in the world.
⁓ People are going through a lot in their own world and sometimes wrapped in fancy packages and titles and all the things but it does not you know in any way, know dismiss the humanity of what people are going through and I get it all the time. I have friends who are in prison. I have friends like physical prison and then I have friends who sit at the top of the food chain across
many sectors, know, Silicon Valley, entertainment, sports, athletics, and they're coming to me with the same things that they're trying to free themselves from. And that's why I think this book is going to be super resonant with a lot of people.
Heather McG (32:58)
I think this is probably a good point. There are a couple quotes from your book that I know really resonated with me that I wanted to, that I thought were particularly powerful. And I was hoping I could read a couple of these and we could talk about it. The first one was vulnerability isn't a weakness. It's the key to becoming the best version of yourself. And then the most profound lesson vulnerability taught me in my personal and professional life is this. When you get real, when you drop the armor, you create space for others to do the same.
That's where healing happens. That's where real connection and growth begin. Why is vulnerability so important?
Shaka Senghor (33:32)
It is the way that we actually create healing from a communal standpoint. And what I've found in my work and in my life is that, especially with, because of the type of background experience I have, you know, it's kind of a cheat code, right? I've been through tough stuff. So that kind of gives me a level of like,
credibility when it comes to sharing and speaking with people and invites people in in this beautiful and profound way. And that ability to create community where people can give up the things that are holding them back. It sets up an opportunity for us to really experience growth together. And you think about it as a parent, as a lover, as a
⁓ a teacher, educator, a CEO, right? It allows people to really show up fully. You know, I saw this with within our company culture, where the CEO got so real with us during a pandemic. And instead of people shrinking and worried about, know, are we going to lose our jobs? Does the company fall apart? What it did is it embolden us to say, hey, we have a choice here.
You know, it's scary. know, the CEO just told us it was scary. And he's not the only one that's feeling this fear. I feel that and I can share that. Now, how do we work together to win? And the same thing in a household, you know, the same thing in interpersonal relationships where, know, you can say, hey, this thing didn't feel good and it drives this behavior. And somebody can say, you know what, I could support you on that.
But nobody can support you if they don't know what part of you is in pain, what part of you feels trapped. You know, we have to be able to create space for a knowing, right? And if you think about it, you go to your therapist, your therapist can only help you when you're being real, right? But sometimes you can save yourself from therapy, not saying that you should ignore therapy. And I think it is important as an upkeep and a part of just maintaining health.
But in terms of like, how do you want to live your life? You know, do you want to live your life feeling trapped and feeling like you can only share certain parts of yourself and so inside you see yourself as this kind of segmented human being when the opportunity is for you to just be open and be your full magical self. And it's just a game changer.
Heather McG (36:00)
Well, the thing is too, I think sometimes we forget, people know, your loved ones know something's wrong. And when you're hiding it, it's not like they don't know something's wrong. And I would even say, in addition to keeping you from connecting to the people around you, I think it actually does damage to your relationships, because they know you're not being real. People are a lot smarter, I think, than we give people credit for at times. They may be too nice to say something. But, um...
People know, people know when you're holding things back, they know when things are wrong, they know when things are not going right for you. I just think that's interesting how sometimes it's so hard for us to say the words, but that doesn't mean other people don't know that something's going.
Shaka Senghor (36:39)
Yeah, or see it. You know, they see it in their behavior. I know for me, one of the areas that showed up with was just as a dad, you know? And it was like, you know, watching my son navigate life. And I would have these moments where I'm afraid of releasing him to the world and trusting that he'll be okay. And I just had to get real. And I was like, oh, that has nothing to do with him. That's your childhood. You you're projecting.
your childhood fears that you haven't resolved onto your child. And once I recognized that, it was a game changer, you know, because what it led me to understand is that my son has his own life journey and he's growing up in a world that's so far removed from the world I grew up in that it's not even remotely close. And so why am I applying these survival, you know, tactics and strategies to a kid who is thriving?
Who's not in survival mode who's literally in the optimized environment to blossom and bloom and it doesn't mean that you know don't have parental guidelines that you know are true to being what it means to be a parent it just means that they're not filtered through the lens of trauma that I've come from and Like even being able to call that out and to say that like that was so hard because the default is You know, I know best as your parents. So this is what it is
And I don't have to explain, right? But that was so empowering because it allows me to actually be a dad at a level that's so beautiful. My son is 13 and he still comes and lays his head on my shoulder and goes to sleep when we're traveling. And it is the best feeling in the world. And I know that that would not happen if I wasn't vulnerable in the way that I've been about applying my childhood to his.
And so because I was able to remove that barrier and take those bars out of the way, you know, this kid still he's 13 and he still likes to cuddle with dad. Like how amazing is that? And he eventually, you know, I'm always counting down the days where I'm like, all right, now he's 14. He's like, all right, dad beat it, you know, but in the meantime, I'll take what I can get. So good.
Heather McG (38:52)
Pretend
like he doesn't know you when you're out in public. I'm getting to that with my kids. My kids are close to that age. how does that impact you that you are creating a safe, loving environment for your child when that's not what you.
Shaka Senghor (38:55)
Right. Right.
Yeah, yeah.
It's, you know, I'm still at this thing, right? And, you know, and this is the vulnerability part as well, is really recognizing where are you in your journey? You know, healing is a lifelong process. Like it's not a one-off. It's not, you know, one of those things where you just get to an end and then you're like, all right, all said and done, because we're constantly learning, you know? And as my son grows, there'll be different things I learn as he gets to different stages of his life.
But it makes me feel joyful. It really makes me feel happy. It makes me feel whole as a human being. And like that, that is something that, you know, it took me years to get to, like really feeling whole as a human being and where my past is, you know, in his mind is just one.
one part of my life. It's not even the most significant part. What's most significant is me being his dad, you know? And so that allows me to move with the energy of joy and love and, you know, passion and zest for life that, you know, I just wouldn't have, I wouldn't have arrived at that if I wasn't vulnerable enough to really show up fully for him.
Heather McG (40:20)
Now there's also, you know, in getting ready for today, I just really dove in and there is a Ted Talk that's pretty famous that you gave years ago. And it's called Why Your Worst Deeds Don't Define You. And I will tell you, I really took that to heart, because I think there's so much that you shared there that was really compelling, I think, for a lot of people. Can you say more about that?
Shaka Senghor (40:43)
Yeah, that, you know, I did that song, wow. I think it had to be about 11 years or so ago. was a wow, wow story. I actually write about the back, the backstory of the night before that talk, which was crazy. But what I realized is that, you know, when I got out of prison, I came home, I was so optimistic. I was like, you know, I served my time. I'm gonna just come out and get a job. And I'm just gonna move on with life.
Heather McG (40:49)
long term ago.
Shaka Senghor (41:11)
And what I did not account for in my naivete was that society is very punitive and that we like to stand on our kind of moral high ground and judge those who have fallen from society. And when I was struck by that, it was heartbreaking because what I know is that in my experience of being in prison,
Were there people who I've met people who I would consider that were like evil. I don't want to be like super clear and super honest. However, what I also understood about those people is that those people had true psychological damage and impairment. I've met a lot of people who have committed crimes, myself included. What I've come to understand
About that and this does not excuse like the decisions we made like we're completely responsible But they explain like there's explanations to behavior like nobody just wakes up one day and like, know what? I'm at five years old. think I'm gonna be a criminal Like it doesn't work like that. There are things that happen environmental factors Home abuse you name it like I can't even tell you how many men that I would lead these groups where there was no administrator there was no
officers in room, was just us. And we would talk about all the things we went through in life. And these men were opening up about horrendous abuse that they experienced early on. And so what I've come to understand is that, you know, people have a dual capacity of showing up as the worst of the worst, as well as turning it around and becoming the best of the best. And if we stop
at the point in which a person has made a mistake, we cut off this whole other opportunity it is for them to not only evolve and transform, but also to contribute. You know, if I would have listened to those people when I first came home, like I would not have been able to help the thousands and potentially millions of people I've helped over the last 15 years. I've helped reunite thousands of people with their family. I've helped close prisons and close juveniles. I've literally helped
people navigate gun violence. I've helped change policy and laws and like all these different things. None of that would have been possible if my life would have been cut off at my worst moment that happened at 19. I'm 53 years old. You know what I've accomplished, you know from that one moment moving forward is like almost incomparable and most people can't even imagine that I would go on to do as many things that I've done across many sectors.
But that would not have been possible if I would have been limited to that one moment in my life. And so, my reason for sharing that is that we live in this snap judgment society. You know, we like to compartmentalize, we like to other people, we like to place people into spaces that we can control. You know, and a lot of times it's just out of fear, or it's out of laziness. We don't want to do the hard work that it takes to...
help welcome somebody back to a community healthy and whole and get them opportunity to contribute. But when we do it, the outcomes are infinite. Like we can really create positive outcomes. And I've seen it in my own work. I've seen it with tons of people that I work with, both known and unknown. And so I just think as a society, we have to stop throwing people away. These people will come back to our communities. Over 90 % of them, we get a chance to choose.
you know, how to help them find a value in themselves so that they can add value to society. And so I've seen it enough. You know, I wouldn't be here without the men who are serving life. People were thrown away by society were the ones who changed my life. They were the ones who gave me books. They were the ones who, you know, I had study groups where they challenged my thinking. They pushed me to really look at myself in these deep ways. And most people would not even see them as being valuable.
But I see them as being invaluable.
Heather McG (45:16)
To go even further with that, so many people, I just had this conversation with someone yesterday about how big things will happen in our life, either we did it to cause it or it happened to us, and a lot of people get stuck there based on what you just, you give up. And what kind of advice would you give to someone who maybe something huge has happened in their life and they're stuck there?
Like how can they think about moving forward?
Shaka Senghor (45:45)
Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's two things. One, you know, one I talk about in a book is like mindfulness practices, right? Like bring yourself back to present over and over and over again. And it's tough to do right. It requires real effort to like constantly be in a state of like, Hey, here's what's actually happening to me. Right. And what, has already happened no longer exists other than in the story that I tell myself over and over. And if you can bring yourself back to presence, like that is powerful.
that is one of the most powerful things you can do is be completely present with yourself. And I still, it's one of the things that I practice today. You know, I came home with compounded PTSD. I got shot when I was a kid. And so whenever something would trigger those feelings of anxiety, I just bring myself back to the moment. What is the moment I'm in right now in presence? And then I would also say what I found for myself when I was journaling, when I originally started journaling.
I would write down my wins. What is my win for the day? You know, what is, what are the things that I've accomplished that kind of counters that old narrative of worthlessness or, you know, the shame, right? And that's where that repetition of like writing a thing down and really looking at it honestly, like, okay, you know, I may make a mistake today, right? I may go in and burn up the food, but how many other things am I going to do today that actually is an accomplishment?
and then bringing myself to the presence around that and not letting one thing destroy the whole thing, right? You know, it's like that. that's, know, cause that's what we kind of do to ourselves, right? When we're trapped in that prison of shame and self doubt and low self worth, we basically turn everything into a catastrophe. Like we turn one moment into like, the whole day is spinning out of control, you know?
And there's things where it's like, no, that's a moment. And then there's all these other incredible moments that we get a chance to show up in. And so it's just that constant reminder.
Heather McG (47:47)
You know, we're getting close to wrapping up here, but there's one thing I really wanted to make sure to bring up because I just really love this and I thought this was a beautiful part of your book. After your third parole hearing, you wrote, in that moment, I realized I'd been in prison before I'd ever been arrested and that I'd broken free long before the parole board's offer to release me. What does freedom look like to you?
Shaka Senghor (48:10)
Yeah, freedom to me is like really showing up present in all aspects of my life, present in joy, present in love, present in creativity and aspirations and goals and not setting limitations based on old narratives. You know, I wake up thinking about, you know, the magic of being free. Like I started my day with a gratitude practice and it's always about three small things.
You know, I'm happy I got post-its today or I'm happy I got a sharpie that I can write with or orange juice or some some small thing just to kind of level set my life and What gratitude does is it really allows me to appreciate? Holistic freedom, you know agency to create to imagine to dream I'm a big visual visualizer, you know type person like I'm always writing the things down
giving myself permission to just dream as fast and as wild as possible, to know that I want to have the most incredible lived experiences. That's it, know, showing up in joy and love and laughter like that is what to me it means to be literally free.
Heather McG (49:18)
I love too. think the one part of that quote that really struck me is the idea of when you're in, especially the part where you said, I'd broken free long before the parole board sought to, saw fit to release me. It makes me think about all the hard things that happen in life. And a lot of times there are things that maybe we can't change or they're not going to change for a long time. And finding a way to be yourself and have a life and have some freedom in the middle of circumstances that are not what you want them to be.
Shaka Senghor (49:47)
Absolutely. And I think that's one of the things that's going to be super resonant with your audience because we're all we've all had those moments, right? And, you know, I mean, what brought you to even creating the podcast, right? And recognizing that people needed an outlet where they can be completely open and free and liberated in their experience. Like, that's the power of it, you know, is when you recognize it in your own mind, those old things don't stand a chance. And
That's how I try to think of it. It's like I wake up like old things. You don't stand a chance today because I'm super president. But now and I'm free in this moment.
Heather McG (50:24)
And I got a big question for you for our last one. In life, what do you know for sure?
Shaka Senghor (50:27)
Mm.
In life what I know for sure is that we all have hidden prisons, but these prisons do have doors. That is what I know absolutely for sure.
Heather McG (50:40)
love that. Thank you so much for being here today, Shakira. Thank you for sharing your story. want everyone, everyone I'll be posting links so you can get to know Shakira a little bit more, but I want to thank you today for sharing your story and wisdom. Where can people find you if they want to work with you, read your books, hear more from you?
Shaka Senghor (50:57)
Yeah, I am super easy to find up under my name, Shakusengor. Go to my website, Shakusengor.com, and I'm the same across every social media. I try to be a little consistent. easy to find there. And super excited just to connect with people and hear more reactions to the books and the stories and help people get as free as possible.
Heather McG (51:18)
And I'll put links to all of Shaka's places in the show notes of today. So you can easily go there, link out and you can find him across the internet. I wanna thank everyone here. Thank you for being here today, listening to the Happily Never After, especially those of you that are on your own journey and we hope you have a great week.