Happiness is an Inside Job with Heather McG
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Description
In this season finale, Heather McG shares her personal journey deprogramming from a fundamentalist Christian environment. Joined by guest host Sydney Davis Jr. Jr., Heather talks about what it was like growing up with 21 siblings, confronting the beliefs that no longer served her as an adult, and redesigning her life from the ground up. Heather and Sydney explore the complexities of fundamentalism, the impact made on their lives, and how to shed your shame. The conversation also talks about how we are more than the worst things that have happened to us, and how changing your life starts with you. After all, happiness is an inside job.
About Heather McG
Heather is an Emmy and Cannes Lion grand prix-winning producer, author, and founder of McG Media. She is the creator of the happily never after, a 360-degree project that explores how life’s endings can lead to a new beginning. A twin mom, endurance athlete, and devoted Trekkie,, sitting still has never been her forté.
Transcript
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (00:41)
Hello everyone, my name is Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. and we are switching things up this week because Heather asked me to guest host today's episode because today we are talking about Heather. We're talking about Heather's story. Give it up for Heather, ladies and gentlemen. Give it up for Heather. Heather, everybody. But first a little bit about me, of course. I'm a comedian and a satirist and a host of the podcast Growing Up Fundie. My standup comedy special Trash is available on Amazon Prime and I hold an MFA in creative nonfiction.
though it's from University of Arkansas, so don't know if that counts or not. Maybe. They're accredited. We are creative. Currently, I live in Arizona with one husband, one former rescue dog she passed last week, and four parrots, and now three Venus flytraps. I know it was two last time we talked. There's a third. There's a third Venus. Yes. Well, I just started growing them from seeds, so we got some flytraps going on here. But enough about me. Heather, tell us about yourself.
Heather McG (01:13)
They're very creative in Arkansas.
Oh my gosh. They've populated.
Well, I'm so glad Sydney is here today. Sydney is doing me a real big solid and everyone, this is gonna be a sexy version of the Happily Never After, because turns out Sydney and I are both very sick. If you watch the video version, you're gonna see us wiping our nose and pulling out the Kleenex and drinking tea and ducking off camera now and then to have a coughing fit. So good luck, good luck everyone as you listen.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (01:45)
Yes. Yes.
Yes, yes.
Heather McG (02:01)
Sydney and I met during the pandemic actually several years ago because she taught, you know, I was like, I want to try something new. I'm stuck at home. I'm not leaving at all whatsoever. I was going through a divorce, like the lowest moment of my life, which we are going to talk about today. It's like, let's try to stand up. And Sydney taught that class, which is when I met her second city here in Chicago. And we quickly found out we had some things in common. The South, knowledge of evangelical Christianity. And in class, we did laugh quite a lot because Sydney was like,
And the fact that we both react to trauma by telling very funny, inappropriate jokes when really, you know, maybe we should try therapy also, which we both do in addition. You know, and we also on the more serious note, we have a few other things in common that both of our dads have passed away. I thought that Sydney would be the perfect person to come on and help me tell my own story because she is a third party to keep me on the straight and narrow.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (02:31)
Yes, I am intrigued. ⁓
Heather McG (02:58)
but she also understands the whole environment. So I'm so thankful to you for coming in and pinch hitting today.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (03:05)
Yeah, thanks for asking me. I'm so excited to be here. I remember the day that I posted on Facebook, I'm like, hey, I'm thinking about starting a podcast. Do I know anybody who grew up in evangelical Christianity? And you responded, were like, duh. And then I went, ⁓ duh. And then it just went from there and you were my first guest. So it's exciting.
Heather McG (03:17)
Hahaha
Yes.
Yeah. Her podcast, Growing Up Fundie is fascinating. And I think the thing that for me through this whole journey, and it does relate to today, there's a lot of us. Like, I think you feel like, like such a weirdo and like a strange person, but like the more you talk about it, the more you find other people who had similar experiences. I, we're going to talk about it. I keep saying, we're going to talk about this today, but, uh, you know, this experience is actually,
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (03:31)
yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, we are. we'll get there.
Heather McG (03:47)
relative to so many thousands and thousands of people and it's shocking. Like your podcast has been going strong for a couple years now at least. There is no shortage of guests to have, come on. Now today is our season finale and we have learned a lot over the last 11 episodes. It has been, the reaction, the response has been really great. This, you know, we didn't know where this show was going to go, but there's been a really good response. It's been meaningful and helpful. I am so proud.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (03:51)
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, four years, yep.
Heather McG (04:16)
the conversations we've had. Sydney was our last conversation. Sydney, you have been on it. You shared your story. And I think it's really generous of these guests to come on and share these stories. A lot of them are sharing things that are kind of hard to talk about. So I think that's really generous for them to come on and have those conversations. And the last thing I will say before we get going, if you have enjoyed the show, one way you can support us is rate, review, and follow us wherever you get your podcasts. If you hate the show, send me a private email. You don't need to say that.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (04:16)
Yes.
Absolutely.
If you don't like it, don't let us know. It is gonna hurt our feelings. If you don't like it, I will fist fight you for Heather. Mark my words. You can take that out if you want. But without further ado, let's go ahead and get started. Heather, so I think it's really interesting that you spend so much of your time walking people through their stories. And so I'm honored that you asked me to help you walk through your story today. But that being said, tell us a little bit about what got us to...
Heather McG (04:46)
Yeah, I don't, I'm not gonna take your advice anyway, so.
Thank you very much.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (05:10)
this episode today, What Got Us Where We're At.
Heather McG (05:13)
Well, I've talked about this a little bit online. My dad died last September, and I knew it was going to be an experience for me because I did not have a good relationship with my dad. I hadn't spoken to him in three years before he died. And I was there when he died. I flew down to Texas really quickly to be on his deathbed and said goodbye in person, forgave him in person. And the experience afterward has been, I would say, shocking.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (05:23)
Mmm.
Heather McG (05:38)
for me. Like it is like I knew I've never lost a parent before personally, so I didn't know what it would be like. And I just have learned so much about myself about death about how I relate to other people reckoning with like a lot of things that I had inside that I needed to learn about or unlearn that I really wanted to talk to other people about the endings in their life. And one thing that stuck out to me is when you lose a parent or when someone dies in your life, I think, and this also relates to divorce, which I have also been through people will say things like,
Well, I'm so sorry. You know, and that's like the standard response and they have such good meaning behind it. But the reality is we all have very different experiences with death, divorce and endings. So that's why I wanted everyone. I wanted to have all these people come out with different experiences. Our first episode was with a woman named Ashley DeSanno who shared a really beautiful moving story of her dad dying a couple of years ago and she had a great relationship with her dad. She had a good dad. And so I thought it was important to show those two extremes. She was our first episode. I'm our last.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (06:16)
Yes, absolutely.
Heather McG (06:38)
And I really wanted to represent for the people out there who maybe had a challenging relationship with their parents. And then when they're gone, you're told what it's supposed to look like, and the reality can be much different. So that's why I started this podcast, give people an opening to talk about endings the way they really experience them and see what we can learn from that.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (06:49)
Yeah.
Right, absolutely. And I think also people are often surprised when they have these really complicated relationships that the ending still hurts for a myriad of reasons. And so I love that you've kind of welcomed, you've ushered in this conversation and you're also willing to take part in it, right? Because who are we if all we're ever doing is asking people to tell their most personal private stories without then returning the favor and explaining our side. I love that you're doing this.
So as we mentioned earlier, you were my very first guest on Growing Up Fundie because you grew up fundamentalist Christian in Texas. Let's talk about it. Yes, let's talk about it. So give us the tea. What was that like for you?
Heather McG (07:29)
You
Well, I didn't know that it was strange until I left Texas. I have 21 siblings, which I have mentioned here and there. And then sometimes I forget, and I think I've mentioned it, and I haven't, and then I bring it up and people fall out of their chairs. But I
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (07:44)
Thank you. Yes.
Yes, I
forgot. Like, I've talked to you about this and you said 21 and I was thinking like 16 and that's still insane.
Heather McG (07:54)
No, no 21. Well, I had a funny conversation with one of my siblings a few months ago, because I mentioned something like, oh yeah, our 21 siblings. And she was like, what? I thought it was 20. I was like, no, it's 21. She was like, there's 22 of us? I was like, yes, there are 22 of us total. So you have 21 siblings. And she was like, oh, I guess I miscounted.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (08:12)
When you lose count of your siblings, you know there's a lot of siblings. You have to do inventory. You're like, oh yeah, I guess so.
Heather McG (08:16)
Yes. Yes. ⁓
and my siblings are a combination of adoption. And then, I always struggle with this part. I don't know how to describe it biological, you know, like when someone is pregnant and as a baby, ⁓ cause it feels like you're drawing like a weird delineation between, kids who join your family by adoption versus kids who join your family, you know, by birth.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (08:31)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Heather McG (08:39)
But all my siblings, most of them are adopted. Most have severe disabilities. are multi-ethnic, multi-racial, And then there's lots of us who were born by birth because we were fundamentalists, we were quiverful, which means you let God determine your family size, that you really trust God to only bring to life a pregnancy that's supposed to be here. Science says that means you will have a lot of siblings most of the times. And then what happens? Quiverful families have a lot of...
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (08:54)
Mm.
Yes.
Heather McG (09:08)
siblings. And this is another thing that Sydney and I had in common, not that Sydney is from a quiver full of family, but she was adjacent to a very famous one. I was like, my God, you know who this is, you know what this is.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (09:10)
Thanks
yes, yes,
yes, yes. For anybody who's listening and you're unfamiliar, a good example of a famous quiver full of family are the Duggars from 19 Kids and Counting, 20 Kids and Counting. Didn't they have like 21 Kids and Counting or something like that? Right, 18? Something. And Counting On, yeah, all the spin-offs. yeah, they're like, we lost count too, honestly. Everybody's lost count at this point.
Heather McG (09:30)
I don't even know how many, it was less than us. I think it was like 18. I think it's 18. 18 kids and counting, if I remember correctly. Unless they've had more since then, but I think it's 18. Yes. They gave up on the number.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (09:45)
Now that being said, being that you were raised in this faith and you were raised in the church, looking back on it now, would you say that the fundamentalist Christian church that you were raised in was a cult or maybe in general is fundamentalism a cult?
Heather McG (09:59)
It has been a long road of You know with someone who's I had a conversation with someone named Brian Rucker on this podcast actually and he used the word deprogramming I was like, oh my god, that's what it is Which that's what you say when you leave a cult Um, you know, I I don't know if you're familiar. There's a show called shiny happy people
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (10:11)
Yes. Yes.
Yes, very familiar. I am the most familiar person you're ever gonna look. The lore.
Heather McG (10:24)
Hahaha
⁓
You know in watching that and then a few other documentaries on this subject, the older I get, the more that I feel it is a cult. Because there's control and patriarchy at the center, you are actively encouraged not to listen to yourself, not to listen to your heart. They actually use the phrase die to self as a very common phrase that you are commanded to die to self at all times. Where you really don't think about your own desires, who you are, your own instincts.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (10:38)
Yes.
Yes.
Heather McG (10:53)
Yeah, I the older I get the more I'm convinced it's a cult, you know, I I just watched the most recent which focuses on teen mania, which is like a teen ministry. and I was just like in watching the footage, you know, because there's footage where they like take them out to
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (11:02)
shiny
Heather McG (11:07)
It's almost like training camp where they're rolling around the mud and doing all these big things and you just look at it and they're so excited and worship and I'm like, ⁓ anybody looking at this, this feels, if it looks like a cult, it feels like a cult. You're not allowed to think for yourself. You're not allowed to participate in the outside world. You actively, actively ignore other sources of input, education.
I don't know how you don't call it a cult. I just want I actually said, Nina, you talked about this a little bit before here. I like, I feel like maybe evangelical Christianity is like the biggest mainstream cult hiding in plain sight.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (11:33)
Right.
Yep,
yes. yeah, I would say in America, fundamentalism and evangelical Christianity is the most powerful cult. Some might argue Scientology, but I would honestly say population-wise, support-wise, members of government-wise, absolutely, without a doubt, just right before our very eyes. ⁓
Heather McG (12:00)
Yeah. Yeah. And I hesitated
to say that for a long time, but the older I get, the more I'm just like convinced that that is, that is the case.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (12:08)
yeah, yeah, I ain't hesitant to say it. I'll say it. I'll say it again and again. ⁓ And so when did you, at what point in your childhood or maybe you were already in adulthood, did you start to look back and go, huh, that was unusual. Maybe something was a little bit wrong there. What did that look like for you?
Heather McG (12:11)
Sydney's braver than I am.
Well, it has been a really long journey and it has taken so long to address these things. I remember the first Glimmer started when I was a teenager, you because in my family we are multi-ethnic and in Texas we encountered, you know, as an adult now I have had to reckon with the idea, the white savior idea of like adoption, which that was definitely in play.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (12:33)
I imagine.
Mm-hmm.
Right? Right? Wow.
Heather McG (12:53)
But
at the time, you know that was giving me some glimmers that didn't exactly fit with our church You know in that we encountered racism and different things I was like I don't I can't go with this like even though I'm being told to just do whatever the pastor tells me to like I'm having a hard time and I think it really Culminated for me when I was about 16 And I was sitting in the audience in the pastor used a racial slur from the pulpit Yeah, and I sat there was like I'm done. I don't
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (13:18)
No!
Heather McG (13:22)
I know this is wrong. It's like it went so far that I couldn't go any farther with it. ⁓ that was when I started to play into Leaf. And it's how I ended up in Chicago because I, you the North, maybe it's better up there.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (13:30)
It's wild.
Wow.
Yes, and that's like
something else I realized when I was like reading over our notes for this episode. We also have that in common from Arkansas to Chicago, from Texas to Chicago. It's like that's where all the former fundies flee when we start getting, you know, fire lit under our butts. ⁓
Heather McG (13:51)
Yeah, and I think
also it's like, I know for me, and it's hard for me to say this out loud, I need to put a flight, I need to put a plane ride between me and their environment. Because I felt like it was the only chance I had. There was just something in me that said this was wrong. I don't know how it's wrong, and I was really terrified of going to hell because they just like burn that into you as a kid quite, not literally, but it feels literal, burned on your heart that you're going to go to hell if you change. And you live in so much fear.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (13:58)
Yes.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Heather McG (14:19)
But I remember I came up to Chicago and it just became this long journey of like gradually realizing that everything I'd been taught was wrong. Everything I'd been taught about other people, everything I'd been taught about myself, I started looking at my siblings and realizing, because you're really taught there's one way to be. You need to be a wife, you need to be a mom, ideally straight and white. Like that is really the message you receive. like, guess what? That's not reality at all whatsoever.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (14:37)
Yes. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (14:47)
You know, and so there's this whole generation of kids and you see it in all these documentaries who are being told to conform to something that isn't accurate. And so that just became a big thing in my twenties and in my thirties until finally it, I had real rock bottom during the pandemic. Cause I got a divorce, I got laid off. And of course, during the pandemic, we didn't see anybody. didn't, you know, you were so socially isolated that it really brought me down to the trenches of my life.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (14:47)
Right?
Right?
Heather McG (15:15)
in having to redo everything.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (15:15)
Yes,
absolutely, absolutely. You brought up two really, really interesting points that I just wanted to kind of highlight for a second. One, you know, a lot of people might be listening to this and they're like, well, how can like this evangelical upbringing be so bad if like you're multiracial, multiethnic? Like how, that doesn't align with what we hear about this, you know, essentially racist white culture that comes with lot of evangelical belief. That whole white savior complex, that whole.
I tell people when you do it for the points versus for the action, adopting kids of a different race or different background for the wrong reason is also racism.
And I just think that distinction is very interesting, especially if anybody's listening to this who maybe doesn't have the same background that we have and maybe their only exposure is shiny, happy people or things like that. And then you talked about the fear of hell. So like professional atheist, like my whole vibe is being an online atheist. And every once in a while my brain still goes, but like what if? like, when I, yes,
Heather McG (16:06)
Yeah.
What if you're going to be real sad when you die and you're facing down
a road that you do not want to go down?
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (16:22)
when there is turbulence on a plane, I pray, I pray. don't like I professionally do not believe in God and you bet your ass when that plane starts bumping. I'm like, dear Lord, I'm so sorry for my podcast. I just have a lot of questions. Yada yada yada. ⁓ Yeah.
Heather McG (16:36)
just curious. I'm just curious. Yeah, no,
one of my favorite jokes is, I don't believe in Jesus, but I will pray in the middle of a situation.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (16:43)
Oh
yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. I'll pray to win the lottery. And so I just, really wanted to highlight those points you made because for people like us, it's like, oh yeah, I agree with that. For other people, they may be like, wait, what do you mean? It's yeah, or like they don't understand when hell is driven that deeply into you as an idea.
Heather McG (16:54)
don't understand, yeah.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (17:02)
even all these years later, that can still impact who you are as person, your mental health, how you react to situations. It's wild how long that sticks with you.
Heather McG (17:09)
Yeah.
Well, I'm glad you brought that up because yeah, I think to people who didn't grow up this way, they think it's ridiculous because it is ridiculous. But you are, it is literally just drilled into you that you will go to hell. It is drilled into you. Like my friends used to make fun of me and because I would tell them I wasn't allowed to listen to a lot of music. I wasn't allowed to watch a lot of television shows because you literally believe demons would come. That was you allow. It's like the vampire rules. You invite them into your body and your life.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (17:19)
It, totally.
Heather McG (17:39)
So if I watch like Sabrina, the teenage witch, that's allowing the demons to come into my house and impact my life. It's me welcoming them in. And it sounds so ridiculous again, because it is ridiculous, but you really believe it. And I think it takes years and years and years to stop being afraid that you will go to hell for walking away from church. And I think that holds a lot of people back in terms of, I mean, the whole thing's predicated on fear.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (17:52)
Really?
Yes.
Heather McG (18:04)
It's not predicated on being your best authentic self. It's about ignoring who you are and acting a certain way so you don't go to hell, which really we know as adults is about control.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (18:04)
Yes.
Right.
Right? Not to mention rapture anxiety is recognized as a real mental health disorder, I guess, problem. It's recognized as a real mental health impact that people still suffer from on a regular basis and they get help for from professionals. So, yeah, just, thought it was important to highlight that for people who do understand and I want them to feel seen and then people who don't understand, I want them to maybe have a little bit more insight on what you meant when you said those things.
Heather McG (18:38)
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I think you brought up something too that I want to pop on to about, because you brought up about how sometimes you might look at a family and there's multi-ethnic and there's like, well, how could they be racist or the white savior thing must not apply? And I also want to say out loud to my family, think we've all gone through a, we don't feel today that we did when we were younger. We've learned a lot, but.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (18:41)
yes. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Heather McG (19:04)
I think that was something that I had to go through because I think when I was 30, being confronted with the aftermath of George Floyd, which I think really brought up a reckoning in terms of learning to be anti-racist and things like that, I remember at first I was very, I never saw myself as that kind of a person, but through some very kind and generous friends who talked to me about it, I started to realize what they were saying and
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (19:14)
Yes.
Heather McG (19:30)
You know, it's like the idea of how could I be racist? I have black siblings. How could I be racist? I have black friends. I have a gay neighbor. have, you know, and that really holds you back from looking at yourself and all the things you're doing to perpetuate racism. And still, I mean, you and I are both two straight white women. And we benefit from a system, you know, that holds us up in that way. And it might be while we don't want to be those people, we have to admit that if we're going to get anywhere as a society, we've still got to start acknowledging where we do have.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (19:48)
Yes. Yes.
Yes. Right.
Heather McG (19:59)
privilege. And so that was something I really had to learn throughout my 20s. Like, wow, you know, I did make a bad, a poor impact on some of my siblings. I'm so glad they're my siblings. I love them so much, but I don't know that we handled it correctly.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (20:07)
Yes. Yes.
Right, right, and I think the difference between having those thoughts and healing from those thoughts is admitting those thoughts, right? Like you said, it's not enough to just be not a racist. If you're not anti-racist, what are you doing? If you look back and you say, wish I had done things differently in my youth, I wish maybe I treated my siblings differently. If you don't then turn around and say, this means that I...
Heather McG (20:21)
Yeah.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (20:38)
I did these things, I admit these things, I'm sorry, I apologize, I'm going to spend from now on learning from these things. We're not saying live in guilt, live in shame, although a lot of churches would tell you to do those things, live in guilt, live in shame. We're saying I did what I did, I said what I said, I believed what I believed, I was a part of what I was a part of, I recognize this, I admit this, and now starting today, I am going to do whatever I can do to try and...
Heather McG (20:48)
Right.
Ha!
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (21:05)
negate that to try and do better, to try and teach others. And you you mentioned something really important. We do have ⁓ a privilege in this life, right? And I feel like as somebody who, me personally, I lose nothing by saying, I'm an atheist, here's my problems with organized religion, here's my experience. If I don't lose anything by saying those things out loud, why am I not saying those things out loud? There are people who lose everything by saying those things.
Heather McG (21:22)
Yeah. Yep.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (21:32)
And that's what I think is important about you sharing your story today too, is because it's like you have this ability and this privilege and this platform and you're using it to not only share other stories, but to use yourself as an example of, wow, rough, hopefully moving forward, I can do differently or be differently or teach my children differently or live differently, however that looks to you.
Heather McG (21:53)
I really think that shame holds people back. I think, you know, it held me back for a long time and, you know, I have so much growing learning to do still. But I think there's a lot of, you know, like, I used to be pro-life. You know, I think some of the, wasn't overtly racist, you know, but I did things that now I can look back and be like, ooh, no.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (21:55)
Totally.
Mm.
Keeps me awake at night, Keeps me awake at night, yep.
Heather McG (22:13)
Yeah,
know, upholding patriarchy, know, elitism, like there's all kinds of things. I think the only way to get better is to be able to acknowledge that you did it.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (22:26)
Yes,
the harder part is also allowing others to change. That's what I find to be the hardest is like, oh, I've changed, I've grown, I've this, I've that. Somebody else is like, me too. And I'm like, but you were horrible. But you were the worst. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Have you found that your siblings have gone through change and growth as well since this time? Or what has that been like? That's awesome.
Heather McG (22:40)
hate you.
Yeah, every single one of them. I
only really have one sibling that is still in fundamentalism, but we're all in our own journey. And I know it'd be really easy for me to say I'm anti-religion and I'm not. I have a lot of questions about participating in religion and it is absolutely not for me. And I am also bona fide atheist at this point. Sometimes people try to evangelize me and I'm like, I tried that. Like all the way I tried it. That's not for me. I feel confident in my decision.
I think fundamentalism and this is something I think is important because I think sometimes people we zone in on particular families, you know, like the Duggars or other families that you know come up in the news and while yes there was a choice to participate it is a systemic issue. That was the thing that has just been driven home to me and watching shiny happy people.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (23:25)
Mm.
Heather McG (23:38)
is, you because I recognize so much what they were talking about. It is a system. It's a system that people participate in.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (23:43)
Well,
I might even argue it's not a choice, right? Cause like, I try to explain to people, you you deconstruct, you go through that angry period where you're like, everybody was lying to me all this time. I can't trust anyone. Now I'm in this period of they truly thought they were doing what was best for me. Like when your parents or your loved ones genuinely believe that if they don't share this message with you, you are going to spend eternity in hell.
Heather McG (24:02)
Yeah.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (24:12)
In my opinion, that's actually not a choice. They've been told, well, you do have free will, you got a choice. And those choices are go to heaven or rot in hell, bye, cook forever. So I do think at the top, when we get to the leadership, that's where it becomes a choice. And I have this whole other discussion about how I think those are just good business people who saw like an MLM opportunity. I think when, like I genuinely, sincerely believe that many of the people who did the most
Heather McG (24:21)
Yeah.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (24:41)
damage in terms of, you know, purity culture and things like that. The camp leaders at those children's camps, I genuinely think they believe they were doing the right thing. Yeah.
Heather McG (24:52)
I think there's no question. There's no
question. Like I know a lot of my friends who I grew up with, there's a lot of shame in the parents and the parents generation. I really think we're seeing what we're seeing today because of the internet. You now we've all found each other. You know, we all started talking to each other and realizing it actually wasn't right. They didn't have that. They didn't know. I really think a lot of these parents, they thought they were doing what was right for their family, right for their kids. They're trying to their kids a better life.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (25:02)
Yes.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Right? Right.
Heather McG (25:19)
you and it looks so beautiful and like what it's supposed to be. And you just don't understand. You know, I think a lot of them did what they did and they just didn't have the understanding that we have now, which is why I do have a lot of, I have a lot of compassion for my parents. know, you know, and all these other parents, they were trying to do what was right for their family. They really were.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (25:22)
Yes.
Right.
Right, right,
yes. And then you add into it the whole, by the way, the devil's gonna tempt you and it's gonna sound real good. So, because I remember being in my early 20s and being like, none of this makes sense. no, that's the devil, of course. And it's like, no, but really it doesn't make sense. no, there he is again. They said he would be powerful and alluring and he would show up in the form of friends and music and fun and this, ⁓ I'm failing the test. So.
Heather McG (25:48)
Yeah.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (26:06)
Even if your parents or whoever is listening to this, maybe their parents, maybe their grandparents, maybe their church, even if they had been exposed to the same TikToks, the same YouTube videos, the same music, they would think, no, this is what they've been preparing me for my whole life. And then you, cause then you shut it down and then you, you plug your ears and you go, la la la la la. I'm a soldier for Christ, right?
Heather McG (26:19)
Yep, yeah.
Yeah, it is, man, we could go all day about this because it just, and now looking back, it is so clear that is how they control people. But the level and energy that they put into controlling people and getting them to ignore their instincts, ignore their own inner thoughts is incredible.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (26:29)
Mm.
Yes,
incredible. so that being said, kind of circling back, when you, you know, I imagine Texas was a little bit of a fishbowl in that regard. If it was anything like Arkansas, it's like nobody would ever question you being a Christian. It was more like, hey, what type of Christian are you? So then you go to Chicago and what was that like? What was the difference like?
Heather McG (27:01)
Right, yes.
felt like I jumped into a pit of demons because you are, are so isolated from the world. They directly tell you be in the world but not of it. They directly tell you love the sin or not the sin. That's hilarious that I flipped that around. You go to Chicago and I'm surrounded by all these things that I've been told all my life are terrible. We'll let the demons in. I went to theater school.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (27:16)
Yes.
Yes.
Heather McG (27:38)
which is, know, if I wanted to stop being a Christian, that is the best place to go, go to theater school. And that's where all the centers are for dead, sure. You know, like one of the things is you were supposed to go to yoga class. And I remember being like really anxious, like yoga is new age. It's gonna let the demons in. And at 18, and so it was actually incredibly stressful. It was incredibly stressful. Cause I was surrounded by...
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (27:38)
of cesspolis in. Yes.
Very stressful.
Heather McG (28:01)
I didn't know anybody else that grew up in fundamentalism. I was the only one. And again, it's theater school. And the way theater schools work is the student cohorts are built globally. So you really have the most diverse group of incredibly talented kids that you could find. It was very stressful. I think it was vital in like opening my eyes, but I did start to get angry because I would go to class and I started learning about, you know, the Ida B. Wells.
and the Massacrum Black Wall Street. I'd never heard about any of that. No one ever taught me about that. And I started getting angry. And I do science classes and I was always taught creation. So I would be sitting there in science class learning about some things for the first time. And I was just angry. So mad.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (28:32)
Yup. Yup.
Yep,
yes, yes. And I remember also a funny thing about growing up religious like that is you learn to judge other people's religions without any kind of introspection. And so then you go through that period where you're like, the way that I've been looking at the even fundier than me fundies is the way that I look to all these people. And that's embarrassing. And then you're like, are they wrong for that? Am I wrong for that?
Is my church wrong for that? And existential crisis. People think, you leave the church and you go party and you do a bunch of coke and you have a bunch of sex and you like live the, no, it's like traumatizing. It is traumatic. So you came to Chicago, you were exposed to heathenistic worldviews, know, the gays and all those things. So then what was kind of your, what was like the, I don't want to say final straw, but like, was the thing that really made you go?
Heather McG (29:17)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (29:40)
I don't know that this is for me.
Heather McG (29:42)
I just didn't believe it anymore. I remember there was a big thing and this is what flipped me. You know, and I actually say pro birth. Everyone understands what pro life is, but pro birth is really what it is because it's forcing all of these people and I'll say people too, like forcing them to have kids and babies, but you're not doing anything to help them take care of that baby. So it's really pro birth. And I remember it was in college. That actually didn't take long.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (29:49)
Yes! Yes!
Yes! ⁓ my god.
Heather McG (30:08)
Surprisingly, you would think it would have taken me longer to flip on that front. But just a couple years in, in Chicago, I remember I went to see a movie, I think it's called Cider House Rules, and there's an abortion in there. And it's not, you would think I would have, like, I don't know why that movie got through to me, but I watched it and I was like, why would they make that girl have that baby? That is all, like, I just like, was sitting there and I think just all the things I've been hearing from.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (30:18)
Yes, beautiful movie, beautiful movie.
Heather McG (30:35)
you know, my fellow students, all these kids that I've been getting to know that they were all pro choice and they'd been talking to me about it. And they just like all gelled in that moment. And I was like, I don't feel good about this anymore. And that was really like, I would say a big one. And I still went to church for a few years after that. But I think just at a certain point I was like, I don't believe in this. And my values had changed so much. My values had changed. I couldn't be a part of something that was.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (30:51)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Heather McG (31:03)
so against people being who they are. I think at that point, probably around when I was like maybe 25, I was really done at that point, but it took a few years of just realizing my values have changed. Or maybe they hadn't changed. Maybe I just like had created the space to embrace them.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (31:07)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
Maybe I think if you look back, I bet there's a lot of times I know for sure for me there was and I imagine because we're just so similar for you there might have been where in church you just went, I'll just go with it. That's OK. I'll just go with it. Like every day you're like, all right. Like, that's fine. I'm at church camp. I'll say the thing. I'll do the thing. It's kind of goofy, but whatever. And then, you know, as an adult, you're like, girl, that's not goofy. Girl, that's whack. Like that's that's. And so.
Heather McG (31:47)
Yes.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (31:48)
So you start to kind of feel yourself change and it sounds like you really had this, it almost took an immersive experience. People don't understand how important it is to get out, go, view more people, not because there will be somebody who debates so well they change your mind, but because there will be a friend that you love, that you care about, that's gay that says, so why do you think that? That's...
Heather McG (32:11)
Yeah, well they, I
mean they prepare you for that too. Like I remember talking about avoid people that might cause you to have doubt. I don't know if that was ever said to you, you know what I'm talking about?
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (32:18)
Yes, all the, yes,
yes, yes. And that's why it took so long because every time there was doubt, was, that's the devil putting a little coin in that slot. That's the devil, you're losing. We knew you weren't strong enough. And now the devil's in the form of your best friend or whatever. Yeah, and so, yeah. And so just think, I think it's important that you hear all these arguments about like, don't send your kids to the liberal colleges. Cause then it turns, it's not the liberal colleges that do it.
the friends that just look at you and go, where did you hear that? And you don't have an answer. then you spiral, you have this existential crisis. It's not somebody yelling at you or arguing with you or debating with you or in your face with a poster. It's somebody going, bummer, I didn't know you felt that way. And you're like, wait, why is my favorite person calling that a bummer? Like, why, yeah.
Heather McG (32:53)
Right.
Now, right.
It's
being exposed to having a really good friend who is gay and realizing there's nothing wrong with this person. They're great just the way they are.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (33:13)
Yeah, like why would this person go to hell?
Right, right. And so what was it that happened four years ago that made you go, this is why I need to do what I'm doing. This is what's sending me on this trajectory. And then what is that trajectory that it put you on?
Heather McG (33:33)
Well, I've had a few big endings in my life. I think the really big one was that point I mentioned a little bit earlier during the pandemic when my whole life fell apart and I was barely making it. And that was when I, I call it the great unlearning. I just realized the entire way I'd been doing my life was wrong and I needed to reset, redesign and really confront all of these issues that had been built up in me over my life. And at that same time, this is a pile on.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (33:47)
Yeah.
Heather McG (34:00)
So at that time, I'm already in the trenches, about four years ago, I found out my dad is not who he presented himself as to the world. I loved my dad, I idolized my dad, I thought he was just so great and so wonderful despite the fact that he raised us in fundamentalism, I just put that to the side. Yeah, and he got sick, he got really sick, he had Alzheimer's.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (34:10)
Mmm.
Compartmentalize.
Heather McG (34:30)
and he stopped being able to hide some of these things about himself. He had a major mental illness that was not Alzheimer's that we didn't know about and he just wasn't, this is the part where it's hard to tell the story because I have 21 siblings and Sydney is also aware of this. Sydney is also a storyteller for a living and one of the big rules is you don't tell other people's without permission. You tell your own story.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (34:34)
Interesting.
Right.
Right.
Heather McG (34:56)
Telling my story is really difficult because it is unavoidably intertwined with my siblings. And it's not right for me to tell their story. So everyone's gonna have to be okay with me being vague and saying my dad was just not who he said he was. He was not who he said he was.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (35:06)
Yeah.
Yeah, and I
also think it's okay. In my classes, I like to tell students, you can have a version of events that you remember people being involved in. Like you can say, my brother and I did this without speaking for your brother because you were all there. And so I think going into it knowing this is your version of events that included other people, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Or I don't think you're betraying anybody in any way by clarifying that it's just.
your experience that included other people.
Heather McG (35:40)
Yeah, yeah, so I have to be real careful about this, but I'll just leave it at, I found out my dad was not who he said he was and who he was was enough for me to stop talking to him, where I had to eject him from my life. Cause I think my whole life flashed in front of my eyes when I figured it out because I'm an eldest daughter and a big part of growing up in such a big family is you are a second mom. You know, my, all my siblings had a mom, a real mom, but when your family's that big,
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (35:49)
Wow.
I bet.
Heather McG (36:08)
The older kids are involved in taking care of everyone else. That's just how it is. Yeah. And I, you know, I taught several of my siblings how to walk, you know, like my whole life just flashed in front of my eyes, you know, feeding the meals, taking care of them, protecting them. You know, we were homeschooled, so we were tight. My sibling group was tight. You know, I still like have a major sense of loyalty. It's also why I'm like a million percent codependent as a grownup and I've had to work really hard on that. But I just remember sitting there
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (36:11)
Yes, the parentification.
Wow, yeah.
Heather McG (36:38)
finding out about my dad and I just, there was a clear path to pick and I'm on team siblings 100%. And it ⁓ was devastating. It was devastating. I never talked to my dad again. And that, and that piled on top of leaving my marriage, getting laid off, being in the middle of pandemic. So I was not in a good place. So, but I am thankful for it. I think, you know, the show is all about life's endings. That was my biggest life ending in that area. ⁓
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (36:43)
yeah. yeah.
Wow.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right, right.
And I love, by the way, how you word that. You said earlier the statement, I wrote it down, you said, I've had a lot of big endings. I think that's a wonderful way to phrase that because people think that the ending is either a bad thing or like this ended for me, it's negative. I can tell you, like fly traps.
They go dormant every year and then they come right back up a new flight trap and then they go dormant. They look dead. They look terrible. They're rotten. They're disgusting. And then they come right back up, but you're supposed to let them go dormant and let them die so they can come back fresh. That's like, I feel like that's such a great message to send to people from you is you can have so many big endings and be better off for it. And each ending is just like, well, that chapter is over. That chapter is over.
Heather McG (37:49)
Yup, and I'm gonna stick to two. had a conversation with Kip Morgan who was on the show, because I asked him about this and he said, you know, I have had a lot of endings in my life, but that means I've also had a lot of beginnings. And I think both things were true. Like this, this period of time in my life absolutely wiped me out. I could barely get out of bed. I was suicidal. Like I was getting up barely like getting work done and then going back to bed. It was awful.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (38:00)
Yes!
Heather McG (38:14)
But I'm also so thankful for it because that was how I shed. I shed my shame. I shed my so many things that I've been taught over. It's the great unlearning. Like I think endings in your life can lead to a great unlearning of all the things that are holding you back. And there were a lot of things that were holding me back. And this terrible time in my life allowed me to realize that I can let it go. I can let go of the side of the pool and I'm going to define my next chapter for myself. And it's going to be, I'm going to save myself.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (38:24)
Yes.
Yes.
Heather McG (38:44)
Like I remember thinking that. So I never talked to my dad again after that and it was really painful. You know, I just had to acknowledge he wasn't who I thought he was and I didn't have a dad that I could love, respect and admire. And that's just, that's just it. That's just the truth. But, um, however, then last year, you know, he was deteriorating and finally he was on his death bed and we found out about it. And I remember I went for a
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (38:44)
Yeah. Yeah.
I bet.
Yep.
Heather McG (39:13)
a five mile run by the lakefront. It the fastest five miles I've ever run. And I just had this thing click in my brain. like, you need to go down there. You need go back to Texas and you need say goodbye. And I did. In 20 minutes, I was on my way to the airport. I was very lucky. I boarded my dog. I had an award point so I could get a ticket, get down to Texas. And for the next three days, I was at my dad's deathbed with one of my brothers and my mom.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (39:36)
Wow.
Heather McG (39:38)
And it was incredibly traumatizing. Like I still remember I, my brother met me outside and walked me in and I remember I walked up and my dad couldn't see anymore. And keep in mind, I hadn't talked him in three years and I walked up and I said, hi dad, it's me, Heather. And you know, big physical reaction. I think he actually knew it was me.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (39:55)
⁓
yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Heather McG (39:59)
So that was,
I don't know, there was a lot of, like I didn't talk much during those three days, because I still didn't know what to say to my dad. And it was really confusing, because a lot of people came by to say wonderful things to my dad. We wanted to have a lot of my siblings or whoever wanted to participate, sent voice messages. We have a family blessing that one of my siblings spoke over my dad. It was really sweet. My feeling is everyone gets to grieve the way they want to, and as far as my dad goes.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (40:08)
for sure.
Yeah.
Yes.
Heather McG (40:26)
I only care about my reaction. feel like everybody else can react however they want and I literally have no feelings or thought about it. So I had no problem with my siblings saying these wonderful nice things to my dad. Great. Yes. Absolutely fine. And then on the last day, and it was was torturing me during those three days because I was like, what are you going to say to your dad? Like, I, I, there's just been this thing locked up in my chest about my dad and the things that, know, the way he raised us, the thing
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (40:28)
Yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah, that was their experience, you know?
I'm sure, I have no doubt.
Heather McG (40:54)
incredible impact. It made all my life. And I was just balled up in my chest and I was like, he's going, you're running out of time. And he finally died at a certain point. He passed and the coroner came to take the body and I just sat there. was like, you know, can I have one minute alone with my dad before you take him? And they let me go in and I kept it simple. I needed to say this. And you know, I'm putting this out there to anyone else that had a challenging relationship with a parent.
It's okay to feel that way. And I was like, I need to say something truthful. And I went in and I said, dad, I just want to say that I forgive you. I wish you'd been a better dad. I loved you. I wish you would have loved me. I hope you make better choices in your next life. And then I left and I think it was really clarifying to me and I hope this is helpful to other people. Cause I felt like really like schizophrenic, I guess, or I didn't know how to think about it. Cause I was like,
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (41:47)
Yes.
Yup.
Heather McG (41:48)
I'm supposed
to hate this person, but he's my dad and I don't hate him. And the truth that I came to, if it is helpful to someone else is you are not a broken fucked up person. You love your parent. You love your dad and that's okay. Maybe he didn't love you and that is also truthful, but it's okay that you have feelings of love for that person. And that really helped me a lot because I was like, feel like I'm supposed to hate him, but I don't. I hate what he did.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (41:52)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Right.
Heather McG (42:16)
But
I think that actually says something good, because we were all crying and upset about it. And it feels like we should all be glad he's gone or something, but that's not how we felt at all. And I don't know. I hope that helps someone that has a challenging relationship with their parent that it's OK to have that weird, seemingly conflicting feeling about
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (42:21)
Yeah, of course.
Right.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I think, so I guess rolling back a little bit, did he know exactly why you weren't talking to him? Or was it one of those he probably could guess or you didn't care if he knew you just needed to shut that off? Yeah, yeah. I don't know if you spend a lot of time on Reddit where parents are like, I don't know why my kid's not talking to me anymore. And all the comments are, yeah, you do. Yeah, you do. And if you don't, we don't need to tell you. Like you're not gonna do the work. ⁓
Heather McG (42:51)
I think he knew. I think he knew.
You knew.
Yeah, he
knew.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (43:07)
And so when you offered him or when you granted, I guess, that forgiveness, did you feel afterward the way you thought you'd feel? Different, angry, upset, better? How did you feel after that?
Heather McG (43:21)
I free. I remember I texted someone after he was gone and I said, Dad's gone, we're free now. Which is really sad to say. I was really sad for my dad. I was sad for him and sad for us for different reasons. Because I don't think my dad ever experienced real love in his life. I don't think he was capable of accepting it. And sad for us because
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (43:23)
Good.
Mmm.
Yeah, two things can be true at once, you know? Sad end,
Yeah.
Wow. Wow.
Heather McG (43:50)
You know, I didn't have the dad that I should have had. And it was just really sad. It was sad. But I will say at the same time, I felt free. remember, and this is so like, sounds like I'm making it up, but I'm not. I have a picture. I have proof. I have proof. I remember I, I had kept it together pretty well while we were there, but then driving back to the airport, I just cried the whole way.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (43:53)
Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (44:13)
And I remember getting there and I was trying to get myself together before I went to the airport. Cause you don't walk into an airport looking a mess cause that causes problems for you getting on the plane. So I'm trying to get myself together. And I remember I looked up at the sky cause while my dad was dying, he loved the Beatles and we played the song Blackbird. And I was sitting there. I was like, my God. I'd like the lyrics really made, I thought about the lyrics again. And there was a part that said, you were only waiting for this moment to be free. And I was like, that's how I feel.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (44:21)
Yes.
Mmm.
Yes.
Heather McG (44:42)
Like I feel free from my childhood. feel free from all the damaging things that my dad did. I feel free. And I think for some people, when you have a parent that dies, that's the experience. You feel like you're sad, you know, and there's grids, a different kind of grief, but it's okay to feel complicated about
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (45:03)
Totally. And it's also okay to feel relieved and then the next day mad and then the next day relieved and the next day sad. then there's no, like you said, there's no formula. There's no correct way to grieve. And anyone who's telling you this is the way you need to do it, they're incorrect. Maybe that's how it worked for them, but like they, you know, it's like telling somebody, no, chocolate is good. It's like, okay, well, they don't think so. Like their body is telling them it doesn't taste good. So.
Heather McG (45:28)
Right.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (45:29)
Something I noticed in your past season of this podcast is that I feel like the theme of shame is ⁓ a popular one, or not a popular one, a common one, I should say. it's a popular theme. And so I wanted to ask you in this journey of both your own journey, kind of deconstructing, and this journey of forgiving your dad and kind of re-meeting him over again after this period of silence,
Heather McG (45:36)
Yeah.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (45:57)
Would that theme play into any of this for you as well? Was there any shame for you in either of these experiences?
Heather McG (46:04)
I think it's the main one because I think, you know, for a long time and I have had to really accept this. I'm 46 years old, almost 47 and it's only, there's some Botox happening here in Trenton, of really accepting like what my childhood was, you know, and I, like the older I get, the more overwhelmed I am by how it shouldn't have been that way.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (46:14)
still can't believe that. That's bananas. That's out of... Well, it's working. It looks great.
Heather McG (46:33)
And I think for me, I really disassociated from the way I grew up, the events of my childhood, who I've been, you know, up until I got brought into the trenches and had to unlearn so many things. I felt a lot of shame about all of it, because I just wanted to disassociate. It shows up and then I was disassociating from it, trying to be like, it's not that big a deal. It wasn't that bad. It was that bad. It was that bad.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (46:44)
Mmm.
It- girl-
I'm gonna hold your hand when I say this. It was bad. Yeah.
Heather McG (46:59)
It was that bad.
I, know, something that was really transformative, I've really been working on shame for the last year because like so much of how we grew up is kind of a secret. Like it's kind of a secret. You don't want to talk about it people act weird about it. Like they do. They act weird. Like I bring it up and people either act like you're inside edition or they like start laughing or something. like, well, eventually you just learn not to bring it up. And that just makes the shame worse. And so I've been working on talking about it because I don't feel like I should feel shame.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (47:21)
Yes. Yes.
Mm-mm.
Heather McG (47:28)
for
something that happened to me as a kid. I'll be ashamed of things I have said that were perhaps racist or things that I have, as an adult that I've, yeah, I should feel ashamed about those things and fix it and never do it again. But don't feel ashamed about things that happened to you, especially when you were a kid, things that you shouldn't feel ashamed.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (47:31)
Yeah!
yeah.
Mm-hmm. Great.
Yes,
yes, yes. Part of taking accountability for your actions is also refusing to take accountability for things you shouldn't be held accountable for. If you're known as somebody who openly talks about ways they've changed, things they regret, ways they're trying to better themselves, those sorts of things, that's somebody who can also say, but you know what wasn't my fault? You know, like.
I'll take, you've seen me take the blame for all of this other stuff. So I feel like confident. I feel very confident in saying this, what happened to me when I was a child, not my fault. How I responded to the way I was treated as a child, not my fault. The things that I did because I was being encouraged in this environment to do those things, I don't think that's my fault. Am I sorry about it? Sure. Am I ashamed of it? I don't think so. I don't think I should be.
Heather McG (48:37)
No, and the more and more I think about it, the more I am realizing how shame affects every part of our lives.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (48:43)
It's insidious. It's like black mold. It's everywhere. And there's levels too.
Heather McG (48:46)
Yeah, yeah, which,
yeah. So that's been the big thing that I've been working on ever since this happened. Yeah.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (48:51)
What are some
ways, like say somebody is listening to this and they're like, my God, this thing that I'm ashamed of literally keeps me up at night. What are some things that you do in those moments that help you work through it, feel better about it, redirect it? What is your method of, this is how I'm going to handle this intense shame in this moment?
Heather McG (49:12)
I will say this and it's interesting because I would say with my siblings and other people it's not how they handle things but for me I think there's a lot of power in talking about it shining a light on shame is a great way to get rid of it because I have been shocked to find the things that I have felt most ashamed of if I start to talk about it you will be surprised at the number of people who will come back and be like thank you so much for sharing that that helps me or they'll say I went through something similar
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (49:24)
Yes.
you
Heather McG (49:38)
or they will connect with you in some way that feels lighter and better. I really think shame thrives in the dark. And as soon as you start talking, that's really why I started this podcast too. It's like talking about these stories releases so much shame around a lot of experiences, whether self induced or involuntary. When you start talking about the more you realize that there's a lot of other people like you out there that maybe had different experiences, but same result. I... ⁓
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (49:45)
Yes.
Mm.
Heather McG (50:05)
I think for me, the best antidote to shame has been talking about it, talking about my feelings. You know, and like you said, sometimes it's a mix of things I should feel ashamed of, and sometimes it's a mix of things like, wasn't your fault, actually.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (50:09)
Mm-hmm.
Yes, and shame also evolves in such an odd way, especially as you leave this fishbowl and you're exposed to more people, you realize there are many things you were overly ashamed about that you shouldn't have been. And then sometimes you kind of discover new things you should be ashamed of. But like, you know, when we were kids, I remember the first time I made out with a guy, like close state on, made out with a guy.
And I've never felt more intense shame and disgust with myself ever again for the rest of my life. But it took meeting up with my best friend over Christmas break, we were both in school, and her going like, I've had sex with like 10 guys in that same amount of time, for me being like, okay. And I didn't redirect that shame to her. I didn't go, so you're a slut or whatever. I was just like, I guess in the grand scheme of things, that's not that bad.
Heather McG (51:01)
You're like, what?
Right, right, right.
It is so important.
I think you're sharing such a good story because it is so important to talk about these things because I think whenever we keep it inside or we isolate, I think it does such a disservice to you as a human being and it makes your life more miserable. And yeah, there's going to be some jerks out there that have like some sort of jerky reaction to it, but just ignore them. Because for the most part, I think you'll have an experience like what you had of like,
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (51:23)
It does.
Yes. Yes.
Heather McG (51:37)
Like I remember I felt so ashamed the first time I had alcohol because in church obviously you do not drink. And I remember I was around friends that smoked pot and smoked and I wasn't even doing it and I felt ashamed.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (51:47)
Yes,
yes, yes. Like I called Campo when I smelled weed, like an idiot. So, and I think also there are, even if, like let's just say you should be ashamed of this situation, you can take that shame and do something with it other than sit in it. It's like, okay, I did this thing that I admit was my decision. I should have been older and known better. What do I do now? I know, I'm going to tell people, hey,
Learn from my mistake. I did this. I've never felt more ashamed in my life. I'm being open about it. I am so sorry. Take from me that you don't want to do this thing either. And that can do so much to mitigate shame. You learn enough to know, I never want to do that again. I never want to feel that feeling again. Woof. But also, what can I do? I did it already. I feel ashamed no matter what. So what can I do with that energy and those feelings?
to mitigate it for myself, but also to help other people never feel as ashamed as I felt because of that thing. And I feel like this is a prime example of what you're doing.
Heather McG (52:45)
Yeah.
Yeah, funnel it somewhere. Man, I'm still thinking about it. I think it was last summer, there was the woman in France, and I don't want to say the wrong name. It's either Giselle or Ghislaine, I'm not sure which one, not the Epstein one.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (52:50)
Yeah, yeah.
Mm. Right.
Heather McG (53:02)
woman in France whose husband had drugged and assaulted her on camera and she decided to use her real name and face in the trial and someone asked her like why are you doing this and she was like I don't need to feel ashamed about something that wasn't my fault and it was so I was like wow yeah
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (53:05)
Yes.
Yes, yes.
Yeah. You're like, she got a standing ovation every time she showed
up. Yes.
Heather McG (53:25)
I was like every person on the planet that has ever been assaulted or had something like that happen to them. I mean, that's how you feel. You feel ashamed and it was not your fault. I just remember being so impacted that and it like ballooned for me. was like, okay, well, what are the other things in my life that I feel ashamed of that I should not feel ashamed of?
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (53:32)
Yeah!
Yes, yes, yes,
or perhaps you shouldn't feel shame, you should feel something else. Like I have regrets about a lot of things that I'm not ashamed of. I regret decisions that I've made that I'm never gonna make again because of that regret, but I'm not ashamed. If somebody found that out, you know, it's like, okay, like you got me, human experience here, you know.
Heather McG (53:51)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
I shouldn't have done that that was wrong without feeling shame. I don't think shame is beneficial to be honest hardly ever
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (54:09)
Yeah. Yes. Right.
Yes. Yes. Unless, unless you're a pedophile, then you should be ashamed. You can go. Pedophiles should feel it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You should, you should. Those and people who wear flesh colored leggings, you should feel.
Heather McG (54:19)
Yeah, those people can feel ashamed. You go right ahead feeling ashamed.
and and who
take their shoes off and their socks on planes they also should feel ashamed
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (54:33)
You know what? There's actually a whole bunch of people who
should feel ashamed now that I'm thinking about. So what do you hope to, and we've talked, we've covered a little bit about this, but just to kind of put it out there as directly as possible, what is your intention with sharing your story? What do you hope if people take one thing away from listening to this episode, what would you want that to be?
Heather McG (54:54)
happiness is an inside job.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (54:56)
that's good. I'm writing that down. You need merch.
Heather McG (54:57)
You are more
than the worst thing that has happened to you. You are more than the worst thing you have done. And it starts with you. It starts with you. And I think sharing our stories, gives other people hope. This is why I think sharing stories is important. And I know you feel this way, because this is your job too. Sharing our stories gives other people hope that they can find their way to a better second chapter. It's not that we've got it all figured out. It's just pointing the way to it's possible.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (55:13)
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Mm.
Heather McG (55:26)
there's a possibility life's not over just because the worst thing that has ever happened to you has happened. I know for me, I find a lot of value in community and sharing stories. I love hearing other people's stories, especially when I learned a lesson that I didn't have to live through. I could just like take the lesson and I didn't have to go through it. know, and I, you know, someone said this to me and I was like, I'm going to collect that one. And he said, you know, I love sharing stories because I think it helps inspire each other that we can find our
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (55:31)
Mm, yes.
Yes! Yes!
Heather McG (55:54)
That is so beautifully put.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (55:54)
⁓
that is a, I'm writing all of this down. ⁓ Happiness is an inside job. And I love that I also wrote down when you said that was how I shed. I feel like that is just a beautiful way to phrase things. So now that we're kind of coming to a close here, what do you know to be true for sure? What's something that you feel confident in knowing?
Heather McG (55:58)
So that's what I hope we can all do for each other. Happiness is an inside job and starts with you.
Well, I think everyone's been through hard things. Some people have been through especially plus plus hard things, but everyone goes through hard things. And I think it's important to note, it's real easy to put toxic positivity on it ⁓ because not everybody makes it. I do believe that life's endings can lead to a new beginning, but we all know it doesn't always. Sometimes people don't make it. You know, I think about
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (56:22)
Mm.
Ugh, yes, yes, yes. No.
Right.
Heather McG (56:45)
I just think about sometimes these really overwhelming things happen to us, whether voluntary or involuntary, and not everybody makes it. Not everybody can be saved. Not everybody wants to be saved. However, if you want to write your own story or your own future, sometimes you have to save yourself and stop waiting for someone else to help you. I hope everyone out there has loved ones who want to be there to support you and to help you. But no matter what, whether you have a support network or not, guess what? You have to save yourself.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (56:55)
Mm.
Mm. Yes.
Heather McG (57:14)
⁓ And that's something that I know for sure like all of it. I call it the great and learning For me I had I had to do it myself. No one was gonna do that for me. I had to do it
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (57:14)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
You know, they tell you on a plane, put your oxygen mask on first, because if you're not breathing, you can't help anybody else who's not breathing, right? So I feel like that's such an interesting message, is like, you've got to put yours on first. You can't think about anything. You can't do anything. You can't move forward. can't reinvent yourself. You can't change anything if you are dogging on yourself and not believing in yourself.
Heather McG (57:30)
Right.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (57:49)
I think I may have said this in your class a couple of times where I'm like, if you don't believe in your set, if you don't think you're funny, why would anybody else think you're funny if you don't even think that? If you don't think you're worthy of love and redemption and forgiveness and effort and working on yourself, why would anybody else think that either? You start with you and then you share how that feels and what you learn from that experience by then granting other people forgiveness and the opportunity to change.
Heather McG (57:58)
Right.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (58:17)
That's beautiful. That's so important.
Heather McG (58:19)
well Sydney, thank you so much for being here, helping guide me through this discussion. For a while I thought I was gonna be doing this by myself. I was like, I don't feel good about that, I need a guide. So thank you so much for coming in here and doing me a solid and coming in to chat with me. Now, Sydney's doing a lot of great work out there too.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (58:32)
Yeah, I'm honored.
Heather McG (58:36)
If anyone wants to work with you or listen to some of the things that you're working on, where can they find
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (58:41)
So first, I want to just give a little anecdote. I've been meaning to send you this in a message and I just haven't had a chance to. So when I was on your podcast, I was talking about how like my creativity and my work ethic and my joy and my the things that I love doing were really, really impacted by something that happened. You should go check out that episode. But the day I hung up from that call with you.
my brain just like, you did something, you broke some seal where I was like, you know what? Like, fuck it, I'm ready, I'm ready to go. Like, I'm ready to do something. And I have been more productive and like engaged and enlightened and just really excited again. I've just been putting, and I feel bad because in your episode, I was like, yeah, if you look, it stops after January, 2024. And now it's like, whoops, no, it's back.
But yeah, and I think it really goes back to your, sometimes you just need to talk to somebody about something and to get like another perspective. And so I just wanted to say like, I don't know what about talking to you that day just lit a fire under my ass, but ⁓ now you can find new stuff. So I have a podcast called Growing Up Fundie. We've mentioned a couple of times. It's on YouTube. It's also on all the podcast platforms. But if you wanna watch the visual version, you can find it on YouTube.
We also have a Discord and there's a Facebook and all sorts of things. But I do this thing called Skeptic University. I did it for the first time in 2023 and I'm bringing it back in 2025, which again, before I talked to you was not a thing, was not gonna do it again, where I talk to people who specialize in different fields, whether it's religion, whether it's history, whether some people are still religious, some people are atheists, content creators. We do a whole week of nonstop content where
other creators get to just share things that they're passionate about with you, things that they really want to inform you of, whether it's serious, like mental health things, whether it's more fun things like how to start a podcast, how I interviewed a few people from shiny happy people last time, and they'll be back for this season, we're calling it sophomore year, because it's the second one. Not accredited, please don't expect to get anything else out of this.
Heather McG (1:00:40)
Yeah.
You'll
get a diploma at the end.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (1:00:49)
Yeah, yeah, but the
second to last week, the week before Thanksgiving in November is going to be Skeptical University part two. So if you're interested, please find me on all platforms at Sydney Davis Junior Junior and I'll be posting updates. And then I also do professional debates. If you follow me on TikTok, I do a lot of
religious debates, I do a lot of debates on God, the existence of God, science and religion, things like that. So luckily I have the same screen name anywhere you can find me or if you add .com, that's my website. But I do read the forms of mission. So if you're interested, you got questions, if you wanna follow up with anything you heard on either one of these episodes, I do read those emails directly. I'm not famous enough to need an assistant yet. Yeah, one of these days, well, I'm busy enough, but I'm not rich enough. Let me put it that way, I'm busy enough, but I'm not rich enough.
Heather McG (1:01:30)
You will be.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (1:01:36)
and, ⁓ yeah, I'd love to hear from you.
Heather McG (1:01:38)
Yeah.
Well, the good thing too is anything that Sydney works on, what I think is really good about what you do, you always walk away learning something and it is also entertaining. Like it hits both those notes, which I think are important.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (1:01:46)
Yes, yes, yes.
I kept a list, I used to keep a list of all the things I've learned from all the guests I've had, right? I started that podcast thinking, I've changed, this is a new me. And now four years later, I'm like, I don't know her, I know who I am now. And four years from now, I'll be saying the same thing about me, but in a great way. If anybody's listening to this, what it feels like to be wrong and to learn new stuff, even in your mid 30s.
If there's, goes back to the shame. You're ashamed of saying, changed my mind. I voted incorrectly. I used to say things with my full chest that I regret. No, no, no, embrace that and enjoy what it feels like to be wrong and to follow up and to Google stuff and to learn new things and to change and tell everybody about it. It is so much fun when you get rid of the shame aspect that for whatever reason we have with being wrong in the past.
Heather McG (1:02:41)
Yeah, I mean, the more I think about it, more I think shame is like to blame for everything.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (1:02:45)
Totally, totally. Even if we're a subconscious, even if we're not aware of it. Yeah, absolutely. Yes.
Heather McG (1:02:50)
Alright, well I'd like to thank everyone. I want to thank all
of y'all listening. I mean, we've got a lot of subscribers. We've got a lot of people commenting and writing in and listening and...
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (1:03:00)
I've been watching your stuff
just like blow up. It's awesome. I love it. I love it.
Heather McG (1:03:03)
Yeah,
I think this has been meaningful. Coming in here, being willing to talk about some of these harder things lifts the shame. We're shedding our shame here so that can have a better life coming up. So I want to thank all of y'all out there who are listening to the now complete first season of the Happily Never After. We are starting a second season. It's going to start airing in September. I cannot wait for y'all to hear. We have an incredible lineup of guests I think y'all are just going to love to listen to.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (1:03:11)
Yes.
Yay!
That's awesome.
Heather McG (1:03:29)
I started this podcast because I was interested in exploring how life's endings can lead to new beginnings. Lots of really special guests have joined us, including Sydney, to tell their story. But I think we all came together to share something really beautiful. So thank you for that. And I hope all of us walk away with the idea that even when it feels like everything is over, there can be a way to a beautiful second chapter. So thank you for listening.
Sydney Davis Jr. Jr. (1:03:52)
minutes.
That was awesome.