Finding Love After Heartbreak with Yue Xu and Julie Krafchick
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Description
In this conversation, Julie and Yue tackle the evolving landscape of modern dating, emphasizing the importance of emotional availability and vulnerability. They share personal stories of heartbreak and the lessons learned from past relationships, highlighting the significance of intentionality in dating. The discussion also touches on the current love crisis, particularly among women, and the need to shift expectations in relationships. Ultimately, Julie and Yue encourage listeners to confront their fears of heartbreak and embrace the growth that comes from difficult experiences.
About Yue Xu and Julie Krafchick
Julie Krafchick and Yue Xu are active daters turned dating insiders, and top influential voices of modern dating, relationships, and connection in the digital world. They’re the co-hosts of the hit podcast Dateable and the authors of How To Be Dateable: The Essential Guide to Finding Your Person and Falling in Love, which was recently published by Simon & Schuster. Drawing on a decade’s worth of research from speaking to thousands of daters and world-renowned experts, Julie and Yue have learned what it takes to find love in today’s dating world. Their work has been featured by The New York Times, CNN, The Huffington Post, Oprah Daily, and more.
Transcript
Heather Mcginley (00:41)
Hi everyone, today's guests are Yue Xu and Julie Kravchuk. and Julie roughly a year and a half ago through my old podcast, Thirsty, and they are long time show runners for the Datable podcast. We guested on each other's shows and I think they are just great. Julie and Yue are on a mission to understand modern dating and why we date the way that we do. After talking to thousands of daters and world renowned experts, they are here to help create the love life you've always wanted.
They have a great podcast and a book that recently came out titled How to Be Dateable. And today we're going to talk about finding love after a big breakup. My takeaway from this conversation was to stop being so scared of heartbreak. As you will see, Julie, Yue, and I have all been through big heartbreaks, whether it's cheating or divorce the relationship that we thought was the big one coming to a close. I noticed that while we were looking back on some of the hardest times in our respective love lives,
Today, we are laughing and smiling and grateful for the lessons those endings brought us. I am so excited for you all to hear today's conversation about finding love after heartbreak. And if you like the show, please rate, review, subscribe, and comment wherever you are listening today. And with that, let's get to the show.
Heather McG (01:56)
welcome to Julie Kravchik and you issue from the dateable podcast.
today we're going to talk about finding love after a big breakup. So thank you so much for being here today.
Yue (02:05)
Thanks for having us, Heather.
Julie (02:05)
Thanks for having us.
Heather McG (02:07)
Alright, so why don't we start with the basics. Can you talk about, you know, the name of your podcast is Datable. It is who you two are. What does it mean to be Datable?
Yue (02:17)
Well, I think it's funny that we have to define datable when everyone's innately datable. And we preach this all the time is there's really no journey to being datable. Everyone's innately there. They're just blockers from some of the datable parts of ourselves to come out. So it's a combination of being growth minded, being open minded, being kind and compassionate, but also knowing who you are and what you want.
Julie (02:42)
Yeah, we often think like, I don't know, back in the day, I'd be like, datable, that's the hot person or like the funny person. I think we've really seen a shift towards more of the relational qualities, which is actually a really good thing. This is not just on our podcast, but like through a lot of stats and data that people, the number one thing that people are looking for is someone emotionally available. And that, I feel like those words would not have come out of our mouth years ago.
So I'm really glad that we're reshaping what dateable means to be more of how do I relate to someone else and be vulnerable and like you always said, be open and all the qualities that make you really connect with another person.
Heather McG (03:24)
Yeah, and something I've been thinking about lately, Gen Z, feel like is kind of changing the way that dating works. I believe we're all upper 30s, 40s, somewhere in there. Yeah, feeling ya, we all look good. ⁓ I feel like Gen Z is changing dating for the better in a lot of ways, because something I have noticed in some of the research, Gen Z are much more sober than their older counterparts.
Yue (03:32)
40s.
Julie (03:36)
Ha ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (03:48)
They're much more looking for relationships. They're not so much looking for hookups and they are not on the prowl in terms of sex, which I think is so interesting. And I mean, I have to think the pandemic somehow made a big impact in that way, but I think that is actually, I mean, that was not my experience back when I was dating at all. And I think that is so interesting because it's so different from the way dating has existed for so.
Julie (03:54)
Right
Yue (04:13)
They are more intentional when it comes to dating, but they're also not dating. That's also the issue. I I read the stat that 56 % of Gen Z are actually actively dating versus our generation and above the numbers in the 70%. So it is astounding how much they're not prioritizing dating. And the reason is because they have so many other distractions. They have entertainment.
Heather McG (04:18)
Yeah.
Yue (04:40)
coming out of every device in their house. As opposed to us, dating was a priority because it was the main source of entertainment for so long. So I think it's twofold. On one hand, they're more intentional. On the other hand, they're actually just not participating in dating at all.
Julie (04:57)
And I know you talked to a group of college students and it just seemed like no one was really making any moves at all. And I think another big stat we've seen is this fear of rejection is just so lingering. And I think it goes to the point of not putting yourself out there. think at least, I don't know, maybe in our era, we were young and dumb and we just did things without knowing, but it kind of built up that rejection shield. And we're talking today about like,
Yue (05:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Julie (05:26)
finding love again after something doesn't work out. So you kind of need to go through this part of dating. And I think the challenge here is that like the pandemic, you know, reset intentionality a lot, but it also made us a little more like socially clam up and people just aren't talking as much in person. People are burnt out with apps. So therefore they're just not engaging with people. And then if you don't have as many...
I guess like engagements that lead to relationships or even situationships, even though I don't love situationships, at least their experience. And I think that might be what's missing is that how do you build up that shield of armor to feel that rejection so you get the right experiences that eventually gets you to where you want to be.
Heather McG (06:10)
I think it's fascinating. think this whole is like, feels like a sea change and I think it is so fascinating. So I'm sure you all are working on some podcast episodes about that. And we could talk about this for a long time, but you have a great tee up for me, Julie, and that today we're here to talk about how life's endings can lead to a new beginning. That's what this whole podcast is about. We're not saying that endings are great. They're never fun. Sometimes they are debilitating and so hard.
Yue (06:27)
Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (06:36)
but they can also be a great opportunity for learning and to move into the next chapter of your life. So for the two of you, can you talk about maybe, I'm divorced, can you two talk about some big heartbreaks that perhaps you've gone through in your life?
Yue (06:50)
think having those defining heartbreaks right now, at this point in my life, I feel like it has been the biggest gift for me. So I'll start there. But the biggest heartbreak I've experienced recently was a five-year relationship that ended due to infidelity. And it was kind of this dramatic breakup because we were in the middle of moving him into my place in LA and getting rid of all his furniture, actually kind of comical.
getting rid of everything in his house, in SF, and in the process, I just had a feeling. And the night before this all went down, I actually saw Julie and her partner, we had this group dinner, and it was at the end of that dinner, I was like, something's not right. And that night, I found evidence supporting exactly what I was feeling and exactly what I didn't wanna see.
But the next day was this major overhaul of my life. It was symbolic in some ways because I had gotten rid of all his furniture. And then also symbolic in other ways because I departed from his apartment, came back to LA to my home, locked everything, got rid of his stuff. It was just a major cleansing. And yes, it was hard, I will acknowledge that, but now I'm two years out of that breakup.
I can look back and say that was probably the best ending I could have asked for in that relationship because when things aren't wrong in a relationship, but you know you're with the wrong person, it makes it really hard to end things. Why exit a relationship that's sort of working? But I knew deep down, and I think he knew deep down, we weren't right for each other. He doesn't excuse infidelity, but it was a...
point of time where we were able to both part ways and have me say I tried everything I could and the store is completely closed and now it's open for the right person to come along.
Heather McG (08:44)
I remember when you talked about this in your podcast, I was like, because I've also been cheated on. called off an engagement over it and it is just it's excruciating, you know, especially to send out an email and be like, just so you know, there will be no party. There will be no wedding. Two months before it was awful. But I think something you're talking about that you touched on is that sometimes we are, you know, things aren't wrong, but we know we're with the
Yue (08:55)
It is.
Julie (08:59)
my God, I can't even imagine.
Yue (09:03)
months.
Heather McG (09:12)
and to a degree, and I think we can say that when we're far out, and we have been through it, so it's not like we're preaching from some easy spot, that when someone does something that is so wrong, it does make things a little bit easier, and I think it's much harder when it's like, I think I'm in the wrong place, I'm on the wrong train to call it off, which takes a lot of bravery, and I think it was really brave of you to have that intuition and actually look at it, because I think, to be honest, a lot of people would have a gut feeling that something was wrong.
Yue (09:17)
Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (09:39)
But when you're about to move in with each other five years together, you might be inclined to ignore that and just keep going because that's a huge ripping of your life.
Yue (09:39)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (09:47)
Yeah.
Yue (09:47)
Yes,
But to me, it was such a perfect gift from the universe because we hadn't moved in yet. I think it would have been a lot harder if he had already moved in and kind of we like had this permanent home together, but we were in the middle of it and
I knew I could just change my locks and be done with this transition. So I'm so grateful because that was the ultimate gift from the universe.
Julie (10:12)
He did already find a renter though, so for him that was unfortunate.
Yue (10:16)
Yeah, he couldn't
move back into his place, but that's not my business.
Julie (10:21)
It's not your problem.
Heather McG (10:21)
That's
coming to get him.
Julie (10:25)
I still love, sorry, there's a little tangent, but Yue tells a story about how people were coming to get stuff from Facebook Marketplace when she found out. I just can't get that vision out of my head of just these people being like.
Yue (10:38)
It has scheduled.
No, it's just so crazy that my assignment in this whole move was to get rid of his stuff. Okay. So I took that assignment very seriously. And the next morning at 8 a.m., someone was coming in to get his couch. So this poor couple is trying to move their couch out of his apartment while I'm confronting him with evidence that I saw. And I'm pacing back and forth, you know, like, tell me what's going on. And this couple's like,
Julie (10:45)
you
god.
Yue (11:05)
Let's just get out of here. Let's just get this couch and let's get out of here.
Julie (11:06)
You
one of our mutual friends texts is like, so maybe I'm not going to go pick up that microwave.
Yue (11:15)
Yeah, right, right.
Heather McG (11:18)
put it on a shelf, I'll come get it later.
Yue (11:20)
Ugh.
Heather McG (11:21)
Now,
Julie, you are actually getting married soon, but you have also been on your own road to get here as well. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
Julie (11:24)
Yes.
Sure, yeah. mean, it's been a long road. You know, we met each other at third, when I was 37. So a little later in life, quote unquote. And I think a big piece of it was I consider myself like a later bloomer. Like I feel like I didn't really start really dating till like my late twenties. And it was kind of like what we were talking about earlier. It was more casual, more of like...
Let's just see what things are happening. And then I got more intentional about going on dates with dating apps in my twenties. That led to a string of situationships before they were called situationships. I feel like I was the queen of them that I always had these people, you know, that I was really invested in that maybe it started off really great. Like we went on one fantastic date and I held onto that. So like, actually in our book, we have these like dating archetypes and I'm a dreamer through and through that I would just get way ahead of myself and you know,
beautiful quality that you see the best in people, but maybe like, you have to be a little discerning and be like, this isn't someone that's actually treating me very well. Maybe I don't need to like profess my love and think they're the one when we've been on like two dates. So I had a string of that. And then I actually met someone that was reciprocal that I was really in love with. was my first big love. I thought this person was the one. I was like, finally, you know, after all this, I met the person and this was like a
It was around the time, it was probably like a year before we started the podcast when we met. And I think it was really jarring for me because, you know, he was very, like, we were both very in love, but he had a lot of stuff he was working through, like mental health wise, and just was not really in a place for a committed relationship to the level I wanted. And ultimately ended up breaking up with me because of that. And I was just like,
It kind of was that moment that I could not get out of bed for like days because I was just like, wait, I had this great thing and it just got like taken away from me out of nowhere. And it felt like whiplash. And then for like the next year, I feel like we were in this cycle of like still trying to make it work because like he wasn't ready to give it up. But then also knew he couldn't really be all in. It was just like this really bad, like on a get off again cycle. And I met Yue around this time and
Yue (13:42)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (13:44)
We decided to start this podcast because I think I was so confused that I was like, wait, you could have this person that's telling you they love you, but you can't make a relationship work with them. And I clearly learned at that point, love is not enough. You need a lot more to hold together a relationship. You need people that are equally committed and in the right place of their lives. But it was very hard for me to fathom that.
And I'd like to say that this relationship ended right then and there, but it continued. I mean, I had other people that I dated as well in that time. wasn't solely him, but I would say this spanned for five years. And then over the pandemic, I think I had changed a lot at that point too, that I knew what I wanted from doing this podcast. Just was a lot more assertive in my needs and all that. And we dated one last time and we're like, okay, we're gonna really give this a try.
And like, we're either doing this to the point of like, you know, we're going to do this to get married or like, we're not doing this anymore. And of course that lasted like, I don't know, month and you know, the same stuff came up. But what was different this time around is that I was like, I'm done. Like I'm done with this. Like I know what I need in a partner. This isn't it. I need to move forward. So at that point was the last time we saw each other and
Yue (14:44)
Yeah
Julie (15:00)
I didn't meet my partner immediately. I think it was probably like a year later, I met my current partner, who's my fiance. And I didn't even date immediately. This was also during the pandemic. I think I started dating probably around like that winter of 2020. Yeah, 2020. I was like at my parents basement, like stuck like in transit because of the holidays and stuff. And I was like doing video zoom calls with like dates in the basement. And then I came home.
Yue (15:21)
You
Julie (15:29)
that January and like started, you meeting people and dating again. And then by April, I met my now fiance. It was just different. Yeah.
Heather McG (15:36)
Oh,
You know what's striking me, you know, because I'm divorced and I had a very, what I'm noticing right now in the way that you two are talking about this and I, my experience also matches this. At the time, you were just like on the floor. You know, it is just excruciating. But now all of us are a few years out from those moments and we're laughing about it. Isn't that a contrast?
Yue (15:53)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (15:58)
Yes.
It really is. I think it's like mine is different than Yue's in the sense that like my ex didn't do anything. And I think that almost like made it harder because I was like, this person loves me. They're like a good person. Like, why can't this work? But like, I still like am not like super in touch with my ex, but like from time to time we do talk and you know, I will say like years out, I'm just like, I'm so glad like this just wasn't the right person for me. Like, he's not a bad person. It just wasn't the right person for me.
Yue (16:09)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (16:30)
And all these years I was like trying to move it up forward and like push against the grain almost. And now I'm like with someone that I just don't need to do that. Like it's just so much easier if someone's moving with me, not against me.
Heather McG (16:42)
Yeah, it is really. I never understood what that meant. know, there's, I guess it's a cliche, but I'm not going to say it's wrong about how, you know, relationships need work or the right relationship doesn't feel like work. And I never felt that until I met my current boyfriend. He's the same one that I was with when I recorded with y'all same person three and a half years now. And it's really, I mean, it takes work, but it doesn't take work.
Yue (16:59)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Julie (16:59)
Yeah.
Amazing.
Heather McG (17:07)
Like I am not killing myself to make this happen. I pay attention to it. It's more like a garden I take care of instead of like, I don't know, a construction site.
Yue (17:07)
Right.
Julie (17:16)
You know, I've been thinking about this a lot because I think there's a different type of work. Like when you're with someone that's just wrong and you want different things and it's like, feels like an uphill battle all the time. The work is almost like to convince them that it's like gonna work and be a good fit where when you're with the right person, the work is more like putting effort into the relationship, but also like kind of confronting yourself and like what comes up for you. So it's like,
a more internal work than an external of like trying to change someone's mind.
Heather McG (17:49)
That's beautiful.
Yue (17:49)
Yeah,
the work is so different than what our preconceived notion of relationships is. Like you were saying, Heather, we've been told you got to put in the work of a relationship. But there's both people pushing a boulder uphill, that's work. And then there's two people pushing against each other, that's also work. And I think in my previous relationship, it took a lot of work because we were pushing against each other.
which one doesn't get you anywhere, you just stay in the same place. And then two is exhausting because who's it gonna win that? But when you're both pushing a bolder uphill, you may make incremental progress, but it feels so rewarding because you're doing it together.
Julie (18:25)
Yeah. Yeah.
Heather McG (18:36)
Yeah, that is a big difference. Now for both of y'all, y'all are now, two years or more out from these experiences. And looking back, what are the big lessons or the big takeaways that have fed into your new chapters?
Julie (18:51)
I mean, I'm so thankful for my ex and the breakup because I don't think I'd even be doing this today if it wasn't for him. Like I think I got, I mean, first of I went to therapy after, so that was one thing. I think it's funny that a lot of people go to therapy like after a breakup instead of just going because like of their own stuff. And the reality is most of it's your own stuff anyways, but it pushed me to go to therapy.
And I think from that, I gained like a whole different level of insight and just like the way I process information that was so different than before. And I think for that, I'm so thankful. I've been clearly doing this podcast and writing books about relationships helps too, but like, I don't think I would have even got into that position if I didn't have this to learn from. I think also just from a personal stance of like what I was looking for in the next partner.
I mean, I was in this on again, off again relationship that felt like a roller coaster. Like there was extreme highs and very low lows. And I felt very alone during those lows. And I think what came out of that for my partner, we actually have this in our book, we have it, our dating your star is like, you know, what is that, you know, thing that you're going to hold onto when you're looking for the person you end up dating and being with.
And for me, it was like, need someone that prioritizes me and that's like equally committed to making this work and shows consistency. And, you know, is there in all times, not just when it's convenient for them. And I really hung on to that when I dated. And I don't think I would have had those words if I wasn't in a situation that showed me how important that was.
Heather McG (20:28)
Yeah, well, and something you mentioned too a little bit ago about commitment. You know, I like to say I wish I would have gotten divorced before I got married, because to be honest, I would have approached the whole thing so much differently. And I might not have gotten divorced. I don't know. I know it's like not possible, but I really wish I would have had an experience like that, because I didn't start working on these things until after rock bottom. I had a relationship rock bottom. I didn't even know it existed.
Yue (20:35)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (20:36)
Yeah.
Yue (20:38)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (20:40)
Yeah?
Yue (20:41)
Mm-hmm
Mm-hmm.
Julie (20:52)
Yeah.
Heather McG (20:55)
You know, and there were all these things I needed to fix myself that I was unaware of. And then it was like staring me in the face and like I had no choice but to change. One of those things was I realized I was not committed. You know, I started reading about how the level of commitment to make a long term relationship work, you know, and this is aside from abuse or things like that, you should not be committed to that person. But the level of commitment it takes to investing in your relationship is so high. And I just was not aware of that before.
Julie (21:06)
Mmm.
Yue (21:21)
Yeah.
Julie (21:24)
I think a lot of people aren't, most people aren't, I mean, especially even like people that get buried. Like, feel like, especially if you get married younger, a lot of times we're not taught any of this. like similar to my story, I was like, take something terrible happening to like confront it where it shouldn't be, but it's just human nature to be like, it's going well. Like, of course I don't need to do anything further. That's not worth my time, but that's like clearly the opposite because eventually it catches up.
Heather McG (21:24)
I know it sounds so stupid, but I wasn't.
Yue (21:27)
the most. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (21:52)
Well, I think sometimes the things in us that most need attention are so deep seated that we almost can't even be aware of it unless something really bad a big rip, a big rock bottom. Like I know for me the big things I needed to work on. I wasn't even aware of it until it was staring me in the face. I was like, my God, it's so obvious. How did I see this before?
Julie (22:13)
Yeah, I
Yue (22:15)
such a good point that I've been thinking about is do we constantly need to hit these rock bottoms to expand our consciousness? And I think the answer is to some extent we have to go through life experiences. But the other hand, I actually think we can take the time to do more of these thought experiments. And this is actually related to the question you just asked, Heather, is like how did this rock bottom of a breakup affect my current relationships?
I'm starting to think about the endings more in a different way. I used to not want to think about endings, whether that be breakups or death, because it scared the shit out of me. I don't want to think about something completely disappearing from my life. But while I was going through this breakup, my good college friend had lost her husband to stomach cancer. And I was like, my gosh, that's an ending that is completely out of your control, right? And every
relationship is going to go through an ending, whether out of your control or in your control. So if we can think about the ending that's in our control, why don't we make the ending as best as possible? Because the other alternative of an involuntary ending is way worse. So now I want to be more intentional, like with my current partner, we talk about the ending. What would make this relationship end?
And we talk about in such an amicable way that I know that when we get there, even though it will still suck, at least there's so much respect and admiration for each other. So I really hope that I can do these more thought exercises of endings so that I don't need to go through rock bottom to expand my level of growth.
Heather McG (23:59)
I love that. I still remember when I was young, one of my teachers shared something that stuck with me over the years that experience is not the best teacher. It's just the harshest.
Julie (24:08)
Mmm, I like that.
Heather McG (24:10)
because he was trying to teach us some things. And I think he was frustrated because we weren't listening. And he was like, I'm trying to help you avoid this if you would just that did sink in and it is true. Yeah, I don't know. Sometimes we just keep hitting up against things. And to that end, how do you avoid, we talk a lot about baggage in relationships. How do you avoid coming off of a big breakup, like divorce, cheating, a big breakup in our life?
Yue (24:11)
true.
Julie (24:13)
Ha
Yeah.
Yue (24:17)
Yeah
Heather McG (24:37)
how do we make sure we're taking lessons into our next relationship, not baggage?
Julie (24:42)
such a good point because sometimes it's really easy to go there. Like if my ex did this, then everyone's going to do this to me. And I think it's a constant work too. Like I know even personally, there's been times that I've seen my mind go places, like in terms of taking the next level of commitment, for example, because I had had someone like say all these things, I want to do it and then not follow through. So I definitely took that into my current relationship.
Yue (24:48)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (25:10)
and like any sign that we weren't like moving 100 % at my pace, I was like, here we go again, you know, this is starting to happen. But it had to be like a conscious look at like how the situation is very different. And like, these are the ways, okay, the other person said something they couldn't follow through, but they also couldn't follow through with anything, you know, and like this person is following through with everything. So it's like, you have to take things out, because it's really easy to feel like we see patterns.
Like we always hear daters be like, this always happens to me or this never happens. And it's like, actually, if we look at like the facts, there's probably times where it happens and then there's times where it doesn't happen. But it's easy to get into that mindset. Like this is always going to happen. So again, it's like, instead of taking the baggage, like, yeah, this happened to me. And we're not going to like diminish that. Like let's make sure that doesn't happen again too and be conscious of it, but let's not assume it's going to happen just because it happened in the past.
Heather McG (25:40)
Yeah.
I think that's so common of people saying, you know, the bad guy always finds me. This always happens to me. I know I used to feel that way. Now for you all in certain situations, there is sometimes, you know, I would put it, sometimes there's a clear villain, like in a cheating situation, like it is just very clear that someone is the reason we have broken up. Something really bad happened.
Yue (26:11)
Yeah.
Julie (26:11)
Yes.
I attract all the narcissists. Yeah.
Yue (26:14)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (26:32)
However, I feel like every situation in life, there's something you can look at in yourself, no matter what it is, even if the other person clearly did something wrong. How do you all feel about that situation when there's a
Yue (26:38)
Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (26:44)
clear villain and a clear reason that there is a breakup and maybe it wasn't you.
Yue (26:48)
I think we have to separate out the action from the character of the person. So in my cheating situation, the action of the cheating was not what ended the relationship, it's the character of the person who cheated. And what he displayed after I had confronted him was, it was a one or two time thing and just kept lying, could not come around to say, I'm sorry.
could not come around to try to work things out or to even just respectfully talk about it. And so that to me was very telling. And the villain in this story is not the cheating itself, is how we were able to come back from the cheating, which we didn't come back from the cheating. So I think the baggage I take from that is not necessarily everyone's gonna cheat on me. I'm now way more open to talking about
opening up a relationship or exploring connections outside the relationship with the right person who's also willing to have that conversation. I'm not going into relationships being like, don't be the villain, don't be the cheater. I'm getting into relationships where it's like, I hope that we fulfill each other's needs. I'm also realistic that we won't be able to fulfill every one of our needs. So what do we do when one of our needs can't be fulfilled?
Let's have that conversation.
Heather McG (28:14)
That's really the mark of a really strong relationship. I cause I've been able to have, I think the one I'm in now is the first relationship I've ever had where I'm not afraid to talk about anything. It doesn't mean he's going to agree with me and like we have disagreements, but I feel closer to him after we have a disagreement. Whereas in the past I was, it was like walking on eggshells with everyone I dated.
Yue (28:24)
Good.
Julie (28:24)
Yeah,
same.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yue (28:35)
Why do you think that is?
Heather McG (28:36)
I think, well, I was doing a lot of things wrong before now, know, before my divorce. know, one of the big things is I don't think I ever did the deep work on myself. And something that was a bad day in therapy for me, I realized I was choosing the partners I was choosing because they were a clear villain. And I could hide because I was clearly better one. Clearly.
Julie (28:52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yue (28:54)
Mmm.
Julie (28:56)
Yes. I had the similar
Yue (29:00)
Oooh.
Julie (29:00)
thing to that because if it's always their fault, you never have to look inwards. And I'm not trying to evict a blame at all. I think it's, there's nothing excusing cheating in any way. But usually if you look at the relationship, there's something that has happened long before the cheating that got to that place. And again, I'm not saying that the response should be the cheating that's like on that person that is making a
Yue (29:05)
⁓
Heather McG (29:05)
Right.
Yue (29:17)
Mm-hmm.
Julie (29:25)
call that's not good. But I think it's also like diminishing our own experience, just be like, oh, this person sucks. They're a cheater. They're terrible. I think to move into another relationship and you I think you did a lot of this work too of like, where did that relationship fall apart? Where did I not show up in that way? And then you bring that forward to the next relationship and learn something from it. Because it always takes two and like
Yue (29:44)
Yeah.
Julie (29:50)
When I hear stories from friends and stuff, I'm like, I know up here, your side, they have their side, there's probably what's actually happening in the middle.
Yue (29:55)
for sure.
Heather McG (29:59)
Well, and I think too, you're making me think about, so there's a lot of talk in dating circles around like anxious attachment, avoidant attachment. And I know that's a real thing, it's a real thing, scientifically backed and I get that. But personally, I kind of feel like I have a different interpretation. I feel like it's all the same thing because I feel like being an anxious attacher is my way of avoiding real connection. Because I'm picking someone who doesn't want to be here, who's not actually here.
Julie (30:06)
God, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yue (30:26)
Mm.
Heather McG (30:28)
And I chose that. I'm like grabbing onto that instead of walking away. So I kind of think it's all rooted in the same thing. It just looks different. It's me. Like I want to blame all these other people because I'm trying. I'm here. Look at me. But I'm not. I'm not really actually trying. I'm not really here.
Julie (30:30)
Yup.
Yue (30:31)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Julie (30:46)
could not agree more. have a lot of opinions on attachment theory. I mean, again, I like agree with you. It's like to the core, it's always good to understand yourself and where things come from. But I see people like blame attachment theory a lot or use it as an excuse, like, they're just avoidant. They're an avoidant, like I should like stay with them and figure it out and help them through it. And it's like, that isn't your job at the end of the day. And also, like, if they're avoidant, doesn't excuse like asshole behavior, you know, just because they're avoidant.
Heather McG (30:49)
Hahaha!
Yeah.
Well, they act like it's something you can't change. These are choices we're making.
Julie (31:18)
Right, right, right, right.
Yue (31:18)
Yeah.
Julie (31:21)
Yeah, there's a lot of thoughts on that.
Yue (31:24)
really
love what you two are saying though, and I think this is worth repeating again for myself, is sometimes we are attracted to the problematic people so that we can hide our own problems. And this is why so many women go after men that they see as projects, because they're probably hiding or avoiding something in themselves that they want to confront.
so that they can just say, well, he's the with the problems. He's the one with trauma. He's the one that needs to heal. And that is such a light bulb moment for me. And I hope for your listeners too, because, wow, what a crazy way to hide behind someone else's issues.
Julie (32:05)
Well, when I was in therapy, like I would bring up my ex, right? And then like the therapist would like turn it back to me and I'm like, wait, are we here to talk about the ex? You know, like that's why I'm here.
Heather McG (32:17)
could be a whole podcast and the name would be bad day in therapy. Yeah, I could go on all day about how I don't know, we just do so much blaming of other people. You know, it is rife across like the are we dating the same guy groups. ⁓ And so often like, but us that we're doing things to
Julie (32:20)
Yeah.
Yue (32:21)
Hahaha
Julie (32:28)
Yeah.
Yue (32:32)
Yeah.
Julie (32:32)
Yeah,
it's easier.
Heather McG (32:36)
Okay, so after a breakup, I think there's two kinds of people. Well, this is my opinion. There are two kinds of people. There are people that like take some time and they're like, I feel burned by dating and they don't date for a while. And then there are people that are on apps the same day. How do you feel about those two approaches? Is one better than the other? It's just something I've noticed that I think you're in one of those two groups.
Julie (32:48)
Yeah. Yep.
Yue (32:48)
Hahaha
Julie (32:54)
Ugh.
Oh my goodness. I feel like I was in that the first group for like my most serious acts like I was like, I don't know, took like a year off of dating and I just like couldn't think about going out with anyone else and he was still occupying my mind even though we weren't physically together. And that wasn't healthy at all. But then the next time around when I dated someone else in the middle of this whole on again off again thing, and we broke up and it was like more this external reason like he had to leave the country.
So I was like, I'm not gonna let this waste any more time. I'm gonna go on a date tomorrow. And I did the polar opposite. I went on this date and I ended up leaving crying my eyes out because I was like, I am not ready to date. So I think I have the type of person that needs the time. And I think if I could redo things, maybe I would work to more of a solution in that time. I think I just like festered in it for a long time. But that being said, it's like, I kinda needed to go through that. And that was like a big point of
Yue (33:39)
Mmm.
Julie (33:58)
really doing a lot of this self work that I never did and really thinking about like, what does a relationship mean to me? What do I need in a relationship? All things that I never gave thought to. So it almost served its purpose to have that happen. So I guess the short is there's no right or wrong. I think we have to listen to ourselves though and not force something that doesn't feel right or unnatural.
Yue (34:19)
I think it comes back to intentionality. Whether you're in the first camp or the second camp, it doesn't matter as long as you're intentional about what you're doing. I'm gonna get back on the dating apps because I wanna know what it feels like to go on a date again. And I'm gonna check back with myself after this first date I go on. And maybe I'll feel terrible. Then I'll stop going on the apps. Or in my case, after that last breakup,
You know, I took it day by day. said, every day I'm going to check in and say, what do I feel like doing today? Do I feel like meeting new people? Do I feel like just staying at home, crying my eyes out? And then at the end of the day, I'll check back in again. How did that feel to cry your eyes out in the closet? Well, pretty good. But I'm now ready to meet someone. So, okay, tomorrow, let's take that step of meeting someone. It all has to come back to intentionality. We can't just do things for the sake of doing it. We got to do it so that we know how we
feel after we do it and then we take action based on that.
Heather McG (35:19)
Everyone take Yue's advice. Don't do it the way Julien and I did. Yue wins. I think there was one time I had a break up. was on apps with him 15.
Julie (35:21)
Ahahahahah
Yeah, I think you did a nice, you had a good balance this last time that I think is important too, is that like, when you're just trying to meet someone really quick after a lot of that's the root of that is to like stuff it down and not address it. So I think we still need to address it, whatever that timeframe is to start meeting people again. We can't like pretend like it didn't happen because it's just going to catch up with us.
Yue (35:54)
sure.
Julie (35:54)
and
you're going to find yourself crying your eyes out after a date and this person just be like, wait, what? just happened?
Yue (35:56)
You
Heather McG (36:01)
to know if you wanted another drink.
Yue (36:01)
What did I do? Yeah,
did I say something?
Julie (36:04)
The sad part
was, I don't know if sad, but the guys that this happened with me, he still wanted to go on another date. I was like, I was like, I don't think I'm in a good place. Just leave that out there.
Yue (36:11)
I'm here.
Heather McG (36:12)
What?
You're so nice, but I'm not the gal for you.
Julie (36:20)
Yeah.
Yue (36:20)
He might be a baggage chaser. I just made that up. I don't know. That could be a thing. ⁓
Julie (36:22)
Maybe, Yeah. Or try to avoid his own stuff. Yeah.
Heather McG (36:25)
I like that one, Yue
Yue (36:30)
Exactly, yeah.
Heather McG (36:31)
no, one of us.
Okay, and then there's a third group. There are a lot of people that go through a bad breakup, and I think there's a lot of people that are fed up, or it's not I think, it is out there and well covered. There are a lot of people out there that talk about how dating is broken. And to that end, there's data that says more and more women especially are choosing to stay single, they're getting divorced and not even dating anymore. Like they're done, they're done.
Julie (36:48)
Yes.
Yeah.
Heather McG (36:58)
Over 10 % growth in three years for women ages 18 to 40. And in fact, the Washington Post ran a headline recently that read American women are giving up on marriage. What are your thoughts on that phenomenon?
Julie (37:12)
We believe we're in a love crisis. Absolutely. It's the basis of our book and we clearly believe that we don't have to be in a love crisis. There's ways that you could date differently. But the way modern dating has people feeling right this minute is broken. And there's a lot of just like, I don't know, giving up this feeling of just like giving up and hopelessness and just not worth it. I think that's what's really coming out in that article.
Yue (37:14)
Yeah.
Julie (37:38)
That article, feel like the title's a little clickbaity of like giving up on marriage. Like there's some stats about that, but it's more about how women feel like there aren't good men out there to their level. you know, we could debate this all day. Like there's a lot of stats of like how, you know, women are like surpassing men and the men haven't caught up to the feminist revolution and all of that.
Yue (37:41)
Yeah.
Julie (38:01)
But I think also a big piece of it too is like how do we change like what our expectations are, not to say that we should settle for less, but a lot of things we cling to ultimately aren't what matters in a relationship and dating. And just like the way that we date in general, like we talk about this, like one of the biggest things that we discovered in our like 10 years of doing dateable is like you actually don't need to be good at dating the way it is currently because it's all centered around disconnection.
And the fact that we're like going on a date and having drinks and talking about our travel stories and using that to like decide, this like my life partner? It's kind of insane when you think about it, because that's like not really how like the life you build with someone at all. So I guess like the long winded answer here is like, I think it's unfortunate if we have like a bad experience and we decide like, we're just going to like remove ourselves from the dating experience.
because like we talked about earlier, it doesn't mean it was a pattern if one thing happened to you. There could be like a great love and a great connection that's just around the corner until I give up on that just because like dating is the worst and so hard and everyone sucks. Like that's just not a mentality that's actually ultimately giving you what you want.
Heather McG (39:17)
Well, and you're making me think about too, and then this is something that I feel like I actually learned this from you because Julie, I think you talked on your podcast back when I was dating before we met. I was listening to one of your episodes and it was about, are we focusing on things that don't matter? And so often, and and I think about this in the frame of divorce because so many women have come through divorce. They feel like they've been through the trenches and it's kind of this attitude of, deserve it.
Julie (39:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yue (39:32)
Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (39:44)
I've been through hell, I deserve this. And they create a checklist and it's things like I want him to be this tall. I want him to look like this. I want him to make this amount of money. and the attitude really is I deserve it. I'm not going to settle. And that's how they frame it up. But you look at that list and it has nothing to do with a good partnership or relationship. It's very superficial. And I think a lot of women need to come to terms with the fact.
Julie (39:49)
Yep.
Yes.
Yue (39:55)
Mm-hmm.
Nope.
Julie (40:02)
No.
Heather McG (40:08)
that they say they want a deep, relationship, but what they're putting out there is actually incredibly superficial. They are putting that out. And I just think that's fascinating that, yeah, a lot of the things we say we're looking for don't matter. They don't actually matter for real love
Julie (40:14)
Right?
Yue (40:25)
What's missing in all this research right now about women giving up on men is how do women feel about that? Is it like, I feel liberated by that? I don't need men. I truly will be happier. Or is it, still want a relationship. I still want a partnership, but I'm boycotting men because of how terrible they are. In the second, in the latter case, nobody's winning here. We're all sacrificing what we ultimately want, which is a
Julie (40:33)
Yeah.
Yue (40:54)
a wonderful relationship with a great partner, then why are we doing that? It feels very counterproductive. So I really feel like someone needs to do research on the attitudes towards this trend, not just what people are doing, but what are they thinking?
Heather McG (41:05)
you
Julie (41:09)
What's so hard about that research though too is that like when you're in the moment, you might be like, F this, I don't need it. But like, is that really what you want? Like that's like, I feel like that happens a lot. Like I know when I was single, I think this is very common of like when you think you can't get a goal, you almost like talk yourself out of it. So I feel like it'd be hard to do that research because I'm not sure what people actually say would be realistic in the first place.
Heather McG (41:15)
you
Yue (41:16)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Heather McG (41:37)
my God, that's such a good point. Because there, I actually had this happen to me recently because I had to talk with someone about how we've been doing some certain, certain holidays. And it's like, we don't need to do gifts. You know, let's just hang out. And which I think is a good thing to do actually. But I took some time to think about it. And Yue add to your point, my reason behind it had an issue. I realized.
Julie (41:50)
Yeah.
Yue (42:00)
Hmm
Heather McG (42:02)
I didn't I had been disappointed so many times because in my prior relationship we would have Christmas and everybody would have presents under the tree and I would have nothing a Birthday, I forgot about your birthday nothing and it was really hurtful and I realized my reason behind saying those things was because I didn't want to get hurt again and So I at Yue I think that's just like a really good point like thinking deep down into sometimes you say oh don't want to date I don't want a relationship. It's too much trouble and while that's not wrong
Yue (42:10)
⁓ yeah.
Julie (42:19)
Right? Right.
Yue (42:21)
Yeah.
Heather McG (42:31)
What they're saying is not incorrect. What's underneath that? Why are you saying that? Is that really what you want or is it because you've been through such a hard time that you just don't want to go back there again, which is valid, but I think it's helpful to understand where it's
Yue (42:32)
Yeah.
Julie (42:38)
Right.
I mean, I feel like the people that truly don't want it probably wouldn't be like engaging in any of this conversation in the first place. They just be out there living their life and not like commenting on articles and taking polls. I don't know.
Yue (42:52)
True, yeah. Yeah.
Heather McG (43:00)
You're very correct.
Yue (43:00)
That's so true.
That's so true. Yeah, this whole study is just very skewed. And I think this is all anecdotal, but we both have friends, girlfriends who are like, I've given up on dating, men suck and all that. But most recently, our friend Allie, who puts on this live dating show, who has been like, I don't want to date, I'd rather hang out with my girlfriends, like men are so much work. Because of the show, she's had to interview so many male contestants and ask them what they want.
she's fallen in love with men again because she's like, there's such amazing men out there. I just didn't know. And so she's now changed her tune. She's like, there are some great men out there. We're just asking the wrong questions. And because she is the host of the show, she can ask the hard hitting questions like, what are you looking for?
Do you want a partner who is aligned with you? you, you know, all the questions that we're so afraid to ask in early dating, she can ask them. And these men answer with so much honesty and compassion that she's like, men are actually great. They're out there.
Julie (44:05)
Yeah, and they're not trying to like say anything to like get with her like be slimy. It's like because there's no motivation there. You know, we get comments sometimes of like, you're so out of touch. All the people are narcissists on dating apps. Like everyone's terrible. And it's like, look, if you choose to believe that and see that, and that's what you're looking for, of course, that's what you're going to find. Like there is no reason you wouldn't. So I think ultimately it's like what what narrative do we choose to believe?
Yue (44:11)
No.
You
Yeah.
Julie (44:34)
because
yeah, there are shitty men out there. No one's gonna deny that. And then there's also amazing men out there. My take is I would rather believe there's amazing men out there and then if I come in contact with a shitty guy, I'm like, not for me, I'm moving on. Instead of just being like, no one good is here, I'm getting out of the dating scene, how is that helping you in any way?
Yue (44:37)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Heather McG (44:56)
Well, and if we quit hanging on to the ones that aren't working, it would probably help you find the one that would be right for you. We are so good at wasting our own time.
Julie (45:01)
Right. Right.
Yue (45:04)
So good.
But all three of us, we are proof that all three of us have been burnt and dating and in marriage. And now we're with partners who fully see us and are aligned with what we're looking for in a partnership. Like the three of us should be enough. ⁓
Julie (45:20)
Yeah.
Heather McG (45:21)
We're not crying in our pillows after a bad date. All right, to wrap us up here, what would you, in looking back, if you could look back and you were able to talk to your younger self, your younger Julie and Yue either going through those heartbreaks, what would you want to say to those?
Yue (45:23)
No.
Julie (45:38)
would want to say that it's all going to work out. There's someone better out there, like someone that's going to understand you and be with you and commit to you and you know, is that person I think a big part of why I got stuck on the wrong people is that I didn't believe that. Like I believe like this was the top I was going to get like I wasn't worthy of something more. And I think just knowing that that's not the case and someone's actions and
If they choose that they don't want to be in a relationship with you, that doesn't mean that every other person will do the same. It just means that person was not there already or you weren't the right fit. And I look back and all my exes are still single, all of them. I'm like, this was their thing, not me. And it's fine. Again, if they are happier single, all the power to them. But it wasn't a reflection of me. And I think for years, I took every
Heather McG (46:24)
No!
Julie (46:35)
rejection as a reflection of me and that I wasn't worthy of a relationship. And that is simply not the case and that's what I would tell my younger self.
Yue (46:37)
Mm-hmm.
I would just say don't try to avoid heartbreak because those are the most valuable teaching moments you'll have in life. And the more you go through them, the less they'll hurt later in life. And then I would give myself a reality check and say, guess what? This is the smallest heartbreak you'll ever feel in your life because it'll just get bigger and bigger, honestly.
Heather McG (47:06)
my gosh,
I think you just gave me my own light bulb moment, Yue. You know, we avoid these hard things. You know, it's like we walk towards the fun, happy things, obviously, and we avoid the hard stuff. But maybe life would be a lot better overall if we would quit being scared of heartbreak, quit being scared of the hard things. If it's there, confront it and walk through it.
Julie (47:16)
Yeah.
Yue (47:17)
obviously.
Julie (47:26)
Yeah.
100%.
Yue (47:32)
Yeah.
Heather McG (47:34)
Well, thank you to Julie and Yue for being with us today. first, before we go, Julie and Yue, where can we find, I don't want to miss this part, where can people find you if they want to connect with you more on all of the great things that you all talk
Julie (47:48)
Absolutely. So datablepodcast.com. You can find info on our podcast and on our book. then also basically any podcast platform you can find us on. at Datable Podcast is our Instagram handle.
Yue (47:59)
Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (48:03)
Amazing. Thank you all so much for being here today and I hope everyone has a great week. Thank you.
Yue (48:08)
Thank
you, Heather.
Julie (48:09)
Bye.
Heather Mcginley (48:11)
Next week, we will be by Alex George. Alex made national news when she was diagnosed in her 20s with Ewing sarcoma, then let go from her position as a news reporter while undergoing chemo. Since then, she's come a long way and now runs a baking business named Lily P. Crumbs. As Alex says, more is more when it comes to life after surviving cancer. We'll be talking about the lessons that fighting for her life brought to her table.
it's a really powerful conversation that I can't wait for you all to hear.
Don't forget to rate, review, and comment wherever you are listening today. thank you to all of you listening to the Happily Never After, where sometimes the end is just the beginning.