The Divorce Survival Guide with Kate Anthony
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Description
In this compelling episode of The Happily Never After, host Heather McG welcomes Kate Anthony, renowned author and host of The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast. Together, they delve into the complexities of divorce, exploring Kate's personal journey and her work as a divorce coach. Discover insights on navigating emotional abuse, the importance of self-discovery, and the societal challenges women face in leaving toxic relationships. Whether you're contemplating a major life change or seeking empowerment, this episode offers valuable perspectives and practical advice for reclaiming your happiness. Tune in for an enlightening conversation that challenges norms and inspires transformation.
About Kate Anthony
Kate Anthony is the author of The D Word: Making the Ultimate Decision About Your Marriage, host of the critically acclaimed and New York Times recommended podcast The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast and the creator of the groundbreaking online coaching program, "Should I Stay or Should I Go?" which helps women make the most difficult decision of their lives using coaching tools, relationship education, geeky neuroscience, community support, and deep self-work. Kate is certified as a Domestic Violence Advocate, a Co-Parenting Specialist, and a High Conflict Divorce Coach.
Follow Kate on Instagram at @kateanthony_divorcecoach
Follow Kate on Facebook at Your Divorce Survival Guide
Learn more about Kate at KateAnthony.com
About Heather McG
Heather is an Emmy and Cannes Lion Grand Prix-winning producer, author, and founder of McG Media. She is the creator of the happily never after, a 360-degree project that explores how life’s endings can lead to a new beginning. A twin mom, endurance athlete, and devoted Trekkie, sitting still has never been her forté.
Transcript
Heather McG (00:20)
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Happily Never After, a podcast where we explore how life's endings can lead to a new beginning. If you enjoy the show, don't forget to rate, review, follow us wherever you are listening or watching the show today. And my guest today, I'm so excited, is Kate Anthony. She's the author of The D-Word, Making the Ultimate Decision About Your Marriage and host of the New York Times recommended The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast.
I've heard about you for many ⁓ years before today, so I'm excited to have you here. Kate is a divorce coach who helps women with children specifically decide if they should stay or leave their marriages and then either helps them heal the relationships or exit with grace. Kate is also certified as a domestic violence advocate, a co-parenting specialist and a high conflict divorce coach.
She's been through her own divorce journey. So this is all something that she has personally been through as well, which I think is important to know. And it's been exactly where these women that you work with, including me, have been. So I'm so pleased to have you today.
Kate Anthony (01:19)
You
Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Heather McG (01:24)
let's start at beginning with your divorce. What happened? What is your divorce story?
Kate Anthony (01:26)
Mm.
boy. My,
it was so long ago. My divorce story was, first of all, I've been divorced for over 16 years. So it was a very, very, it was long before social media really, there was no Instagram, there were no podcasts, right? I didn't really understand what was happening in my marriage. I knew that it was bad. I knew that I was
trying everything, but it felt like the goalpost kept moving. Like every time I would do the one thing that he would say would be the thing that would stop him from criticizing me, from gaslighting me, which I now know is gaslighting, right? Blaming me for everything. was like this, you know, constant moving of the goalpost. And I felt like I was crazy. I felt like he wanted me...
Heather McG (02:09)
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (02:19)
I kept saying to him, if I was just a robot, I think it would be better because then you could program me. Right. Which is like a horrifying thing to think or feel in your marriage or to have to say to your spouse. Right. And look, I didn't understand it at the time. What I now know is that I was being very badly emotionally abused.
Heather McG (02:27)
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (02:41)
I was, I also didn't know that I was being compulsively cheated on
Heather McG (02:46)
my gosh.
Kate Anthony (02:46)
that my ⁓ husband was never faithful to me, probably throughout our entire dating relationship. I just didn't know that at the time. I did not know that it is contraindicated to go to therapy with someone who is emotionally abusing you or any form of abuse, by the way. I didn't know that it was, yep.
Heather McG (03:07)
Wait, wait, can we start, stop
right there? What do you mean by that? Sorry, I'm sorry for interrupting. I was like, that's interesting. What is that? Wait a minute. Now I wanna know.
Kate Anthony (03:10)
huh. No, you're like, hold on a minute.
Here's the problem. Most therapists are not trained in this. is not recognizing domestic abuse. Any sign of domestic violence or abuse is not part of basic training for therapists. They have to go on to get more
certifications and training, continuing education to learn these things. And yet almost all therapists right out of therapy school will see couples because they've studied internal family systems. They've studied relationship, whatever it is. They've studied Gottman, all of these things, but they have never been trained in. It is not part of their
training to recognize signs of abuse. And yet going to therapy with an abuser is contraindicated because abuse is not a therapy issue. It's not a relationship issue and it is not a ⁓ communication issue. It is an abuser issue. And
Heather McG (04:22)
God, you are like,
you've been here five minutes, I'm having a moment already.
Kate Anthony (04:25)
Yeah, I know, right? When you learn this shit, you're like, no wonder it didn't work. Right. And we're pouring all of this and we go to therapy. We're like, okay, this is going to help. Right. And we're so earnest in our, you know, sort of desire for it to help and for it to work and like, okay, we're finally going to get somewhere because we put all of this faith in the, in the therapist. Cause we kind of feel like therapists are
Heather McG (04:32)
Yeah!
Kate Anthony (04:54)
God in many senses, right? And now that I do what I do, cannot begin to tell you the number of bad therapists that are out there. therapists, unless they seek additional training, don't recognize these signs.
The other reason that therapy is contraindicated is that they abusers are not there to solve a problem. They're there to gather Intel. They don't want to solve the problem. They don't think actually there is a problem other than you. Obviously you're the problem. But what they tend to do is they learn therapy speak to then weaponize against you at home.
They learn your more vulnerable spots. To then weaponize against you at home. And often they can manipulate the therapist into sort of becoming an abuser by proxy, right? Where a therapist will be like, well, you know, I don't know, like, why can't you XYZ or whatever, you know, like, it shouldn't be that hard for you to, know.
Maybe you should make sex dates when there's like sexual coercion and you don't feel safe having sex with this person. But like the therapist now wants you to have sex dates, right? To like bridge that divide. So it's very dangerous to go to therapy with an abuser. I didn't know that. Yeah.
Heather McG (05:58)
Yeah.
Right.
My gosh, now, no.
My mind is like blown right now because I am thinking, and I'm sure you have the same experience of the many, many, many women in my life who have been in abusive marriages, went to therapy and like this situation was happening. I'm thinking about, and they didn't even know, it's doubled down because they didn't realize they were in an abusive marriage at that time.
Kate Anthony (06:35)
Right. And, and you think, well, therapists would, would know this and they would call it out. Right. So a good therapist will, pull you aside and say, I actually can't work with you guys as a couple because this is happening, but let me tell, I need to tell you actually what's happening in this relationship dynamic and give you some tools. and, you know, a lot of therapists will agree to work with you one on one.
Heather McG (06:54)
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (07:02)
⁓ but they won't work with an abuser. ⁓ now my therapist didn't do that. so, you know, what happened in my marriage was it just, my, the moment for me, like the aha moment for me was that my, you know, our therapist also kept telling us that we needed to stay married for my son. And my son was like two and a half, right?
Heather McG (07:05)
Hmm.
my God.
Kate Anthony (07:27)
And yeah, so there was this book written in the early 2000, I think it came out in 2000, that was all about how marriage destroys children and that you have to stay married no matter what. Um, because the worst thing that you could ever do for your child is get divorced. Like that's the thing that will destroy everything. Divorce destroys children.
Heather McG (07:47)
the divorce destroys children. Okay, yeah,
okay.
Kate Anthony (07:52)
this
was done by like a quote researcher therapist who, then it was, and then, everybody like, was, this was like the Bible at that point. And it turned out that she had done no actual research, that it was not a peer reviewed study. And it was, it was only about only from like something like,
a few, a handful of children were studied from one county in one state. Like this very, it was not controlled. Like there was nothing about it that it was actual research, right? There was a lot of domestic violence in the homes. Like the kids were screwed up, not because of the divorce, but because of the toxicity that was around them, whether the parents got divorced or not. And,
Heather McG (08:32)
Yeah.
All
Kate Anthony (08:38)
So this was widely debunked, but this is what my therapist was like hanging her hat on that like, no, divorce is terrible for children. So you have to stay together for your time. And I just had this moment of clarity one day where I was like standing in my closet staring into like nothingness as you do, right?
And all of a sudden I realized, and I don't know where it came from. It was like a, just a moment of clarity. and I realized that if I stayed in my marriage, my son was going to be, become an abuser that my, son was going to choose really like kind of me, codependent women to kind of prey upon that he was going to treat them exactly the way his father treated me.
And that the only way my child who was, you know, two and a half, three at the time, the only way he had a chance was if I got out and I got out like quickly. And in that moment, I was like, I have to leave for him. I have to I have to leave for him.
Heather McG (09:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Something that's interesting about that, like when you have more time out after you've left, that you are also important. It's okay to leave for yourself too.
Kate Anthony (09:51)
Yes.
Yeah.
⁓
yes. mean, look, and it took me years before I like, you know, got to that point and understood that and did that work and all of that. But that is, that is now what I, you know, a sort of a, a, you know, a foundational tenant of my work that, you know, I say at the end of every episode of my podcast that you, my love deserve to be happy. And
Heather McG (10:08)
Right?
Kate Anthony (10:22)
you know, there are women who listen to my podcast and they like, they go through the, they go all the way through to hear that because they, they say that like, they just hear my voice saying that and it's like calming and soothing. because it's a radical concept, right? And it's a, it's a radical concept for a number of reasons. We live in a society in which, you know, women are not meant to, to choose, right? We are.
Heather McG (10:38)
Right.
Kate Anthony (10:49)
I mean, this whole like pick me thing, which whatever. But but really, right, that's what this is. Like we wait for boys to ask us to dance at the school dances. We wait for boys to ask us out. We wait for for men to ask us on dates. We wait for men to ask us to marry them. And so why on earth would we think we get a choice to be the chooser at this point? Right. Like that's just not the way we
Heather McG (11:01)
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (11:16)
Now it's the way we are conditioning and socializing our girls now, but you know, I'm 54. I was not conditioned this way in the seventh, even though my mom was a single mom and was like all, you know, was a radical feminist and all of the things. I didn't, I didn't absorb that.
Heather McG (11:39)
Well, it's also, that's what abuse does to someone. Cause it beats them down so far that you really start to believe these things. You start to believe that you're, you know, I used to say, you know, sometimes I just feel like a piece of gum in the street, you know, because that's something you really internalize, you know, and you don't think you have any ⁓ value. And so I think that's kind of where you're at when a lot of women are ready to leave, their self esteem could not be lower. And I also think it's interesting too,
Kate Anthony (11:42)
Well, that's right. Exactly.
That's right. That is. Yep.
That's right.
Heather McG (12:07)
you know, more and women are leaving, you know, more and more women that like we see the numbers are going up specifically initiated by women in heterosexual marriages. And sometimes I really think a lot of it is we have so much more access to information like you were saying, when you got divorced, social media wasn't a thing. And now I think we have so much more access to being able to recognize abuse, being able to recognize when something's not right.
Kate Anthony (12:28)
Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (12:32)
You know, social media has many problems, but that is something that I think is really good. Honestly, I think that is part of why more women are leaving these days.
Kate Anthony (12:33)
100 %
Absolutely.
Yes. I think I think you're absolutely right. I think we have way more access to information and you know, the scales are tipping in terms of, you know, finances, you know, more women or higher income earners. We have higher levels of education and we're going to therapy and we're doing the work and and there has become a real broader disconnect.
Heather McG (12:54)
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (13:08)
⁓ between the genders in those areas where women are like, actually don't need you. You're kind of a you're you're not not only are you not participating, but You're kind of dragging me down. So what am I doing here? Right. Why am I here? Yeah. And we used. Yeah, go ahead.
Heather McG (13:14)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, why am I here?
What do you think about? Well,
I was gonna ask you, what do you think about, and I wanna be careful how I talk about this because it has nothing to do with what's right or wrong. Everyone should have the choice to do what they want. But I get anxious at times when some of my perhaps younger family members or friends talk about becoming a stay at home mom. And it's not that there's anything wrong with that on the surface. It makes me anxious because you just never.
Kate Anthony (13:38)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, as you should.
That's right.
Heather McG (13:53)
know what will happen. And the women I know who stayed a lot longer than they should, it's because they had no financial resources. They did not have a job. They did not have access to their own things where they could leave.
Kate Anthony (13:55)
That's right.
That's exactly right.
That's right. That's right. think it's a trap, unfortunately. I think it's the biggest mistake that women make. I, and again, I think you're right. I think, look, I was a stay-at-home mom, right? But I was not being financially abused the way that many, many women are. If you're given an allowance, that's financial abuse.
One thing I want to say that if you're a state home mom and you have been considering leaving your marriage and you don't leave because of finances and you have ever been told that it's his money, that it's not your money, get a load of the laws in your state because in almost all states you have access to at least 50 % of that money legally, whether he gives you access or not.
I know many women who have been stay at home moms who I say to them, you would be, you would be better off financially if you left because you would have, your settlement would give you your own money. There's no such thing in marriage as his money or your money. ⁓ It's all marital. I mean, when women give up
Heather McG (15:13)
All
Kate Anthony (15:19)
the, you know, access to the workforce and making their own money. They tie themselves to a man in a way that creates an immediate power imbalance, unless there's some very, very strict agreements put in place in the very beginning. So, you know, first of all, a clear understanding that
the amount of labor you're doing in the home is actually has, it has worth. It has financial worth. Most men would not be able to be as successful as they are if they didn't have a woman at home taking care of all the domestic labor, right? So there's actually a price tag on that. There's a monetary value to that.
Make sure you have equal access to all of the bank accounts. You want to know how much money is going in, going out at all times. You want your name to be on every account and all the credit cards, everything. and you need your own login for all of the accounts. If you are being, if any of that is being withheld from you, you're being financially abused. and that, you know, abuse is about power and control period. End of story.
And so if somebody is withholding that information from you, it's because they're trying to maintain power and control over you. And that is dangerous. You know, again, it's a choice. I think most of us don't make the choice from an extremely informed place. I think most of us make the choice
⁓ out of fantasy or write this, the, you know, it's the fairy tale, right? and by the way, it's really, it's really fucking different when you're in it. I mean, I don't know about you, but it, it was mind numbing to me. was like,
Heather McG (17:06)
Yeah.
I was in a fog. Like sometimes like,
that's why I think divorce can be really interesting. Cause when you're in it, you don't see it. You really don't. I was like, friends were dropping. I had friends, know, like they noticed how I was changing. I didn't see it. And it's kind of interesting looking back. It is so obvious.
Kate Anthony (17:27)
You don't
That's right.
I didn't either.
Heather McG (17:40)
obvious, but yet I really would love to learn more about the mental state. Cause it's kind of funny. Divorce is such a big change and you need to advocate for yourself. You have to make some really big decisions. Yet you are probably in the most mentally and emotionally unstable phase of your entire life. Quite probably.
Kate Anthony (17:44)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
That's right. That's right.
Right. And that's why I have a job, right? Because, right. because, you know, when you have experienced that much trauma and that much, that many, those, that many blows to your self-esteem, you don't trust yourself. You don't trust your ability to make decisions. Your, sometimes your brain doesn't act the executive function portions of your brain.
Heather McG (18:02)
Yes.
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (18:24)
are not functioning. When you are in a state of trauma and your amygdala is activated, your prefrontal cortex responsible for executive functioning and reasoning and all those things goes to sleep. It has to. That's the way it works. So when you're in a trauma state, when you're in a fight, flight or freeze, most of us spend almost all of our time in that state.
⁓ in order to survive an abusive marriage. So when that's activated, we are actually unable to reason. it is physically, physiologically impossible to do so, right?
Heather McG (18:58)
Wow.
You are relieving so much
guilt, think, because you feel so stupid and like the worst, right? You feel so weak and stupid.
Kate Anthony (19:08)
Yeah, you do. feel you feel
why didn't I see it? How could I write? And also, also, you're you're there's like a brainwashing that's happened, right? Where you're just constantly told that you're the problem. And so, you know, that moving target thing again, right? It's like, well, OK, you know, I wouldn't have to have hit you if you had just or whatever the thing is.
And, you know, and so then you're like, okay, I'll, I'll do that thing. So here's the, here's the real, I mean, there's a bunch of stuff, right. ⁓ but I think the important thing to know too, is that there's the cycle of abuse that we all talk about, right. And it's a, it's a flawed cycle. We don't actually use it in domestic violence anymore, but I think it's actually an important, sort of conversation piece because you know, you've got the, the,
The top of the cycle is the honeymoon period. Everything's amazing. Or it's just like fine and peaceful and normal. Right. And then there's the tension building and the tension builds and you know, something is brewing. Right. Those of us who have been in the cycle long enough, no, like, oh shit, you can feel the tension. You know, something's about to happen. You don't know why you don't know how you don't know what the problem is. Um, but you know, it's coming.
And then there's the explosion, the incident, whether that's they hit you, they scream and yell, they throw things, you know, whatever form that your flavor of abuse, you know, comes in, it happens. And then there is the sort of the calm after the storm. There's the reconciliation. It might be an apology.
It might be that they bring you flowers, they buy you jewelry. They're like, it's never going to happen again. I'm so sorry. Or it just gets swept under the rug like nothing ever happened. And you're just kind of waiting for it to go back to like the happy normal. Right. When we are victims, right, we think that the happy normal, whether that's, you know, in in some really toxic relationships, that's that intensity of love. It's like, my
God, we're just like soulmates and it's, have this incredible sex and the connection and da da da da, right? And then the violence happens and, um, you know, we think that that is the relationship. think that the happiness, the joy, the connection, or just the, like the, you know, skating on the surface, we think that's the relationship and that we kind of go through this and we're like, well, if we can just get back to that, then everything will be fine. And what we're
Heather McG (21:42)
yeah, yep.
Yeah.
Right, he loves me. This is
the best connection I've ever, yeah, you're right. I think we, for some reason, we hang on to the best it can be, and this is what it's supposed to be, when actually it's right, when it's not.
Kate Anthony (22:01)
And that that's what it is. It's the whole thing.
What we don't, what we don't acknowledge is that it's actually the entire cycle. That is the relationship and the, you know, the violence included, the toxicity included, like it's the whole thing. And we're just like, well, if we can just get back to here, we'll stay here. Right. And every time we get up to the joy and the happiness, the connection or the calm, we think it's going to last.
Heather McG (22:22)
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (22:30)
We're like, okay, okay, we're good. We're through it. Everything's fine. And then the tension builds again, right? And it takes a really long time for us to recognize that like, no, no, no, no, no, that is a pattern, right? Whatever it is that it looks like for you, you know, find the pattern and recognize that that is the relationship.
Heather McG (22:41)
Yeah.
Yeah, I used to tell some of the women that I was talking to and working with that once you have bought a book that says something like, why does he do that? That's like the death knell, I think, because is he buying that book? Probably not. Why are you like, this is not a good sign. Now,
Kate Anthony (22:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. No, absolutely not. Mm-hmm. That's right. He's never buying
the book that says, am I doing that? Yeah, right? And Lundy didn't write that book. He wrote the other one. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (23:12)
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so for women, you literally wrote the book on this, on deciding when and how and whether to leave your marriage. What are some, know, for some women, and it's okay to leave your marriage if you're not being abused and it's just not working, that's also okay. How do you, what are some of your like top pieces of things to think about when you're trying to figure out if you should leave?
Kate Anthony (23:25)
Yeah.
Yep, you get to choose.
Well, I think the most important thing is to take the focus off the other person, right? We spend so much time looking at them. like, it's what they're doing bad enough for like, they're really nice and they love me. And, know, it doesn't, well, that doesn't rise to the level of like getting divorced. Like that's, that's too much or right. so rather than looking at what they're doing and constantly sort of microscopic, putting a microscope up to their behavior and like,
Turn that around on yourself and look at your own experiences and feelings maybe over time, right? And as you said, if he's the greatest guy in the world, but he's not your greatest guy, you're, you just, it's like, I can't, you get to get out of that marriage. Are you actually sacrificing your whole life?
because you just kind of feel bad. You know, we get, we get one, one shot at this life. That's it. Right? Yeah.
Heather McG (24:37)
person.
Yeah, and
that's real. There's a line from, and a lot of divorced women have also read the book Untamed by Glennon Doyle. And there is a, you probably remember this, in one of the early chapters, she talks about when she was deciding whether to leave her marriage, and she was starting to realize that she was probably not straight, or almost definitely not straight, and that she should be with the woman. And she does this whole description. At the end, she says,
Kate Anthony (24:48)
Mm-hmm, sure, exactly, yep.
Mm-hmm.
huh.
Heather McG (25:07)
You know, she's like thinking about what if I had this other life? I could have a family with a woman and have this whole life. And the way she finished it was, well, maybe in another life. And her last sentence just killed me and said, wow, as if we had more than one. And I was like, my, I think that's when I decided to get a divorce when I read that line. But yeah, it's true. You get one shot.
Kate Anthony (25:26)
Exactly.
You get one and that's it. That's that's, you know, that's it. And so I think that looking at yourself and your own experiences like do I and I have actually in my book and on my website, I have a ⁓ healthy relationship checklist to kind of help you sort through. And it's really about yourself and your feelings. Like, do I feel
healthy, do I feel emotionally safe? Do I feel seen? Do I feel connected? Do I feel like my partner likes me? Do I like my partner? You know, do I do I feel like there's a lot of like, do I feel questions in there? And the you know, the answers can be surprising, but probably not, to be honest.
I mean, because, you know, as you said, like, if you're, if you're questioning, should I stay or should I go? If you're like up at three o'clock in the morning and you're typing that into Google and you're coming up to my website, if you're buying a book called the D word, making the ultimate decision about your marriage, your prop people who are in healthy, happy relationships are not Googling these things and buying these books.
Heather McG (26:40)
Right. Yeah, I like to say if you have given up hope that it will ever get better or improve, that's it. For sure. There are other reasons, but if you feel that way, you're done, I think.
Kate Anthony (26:49)
That's it. Absolutely. Yeah,
absolutely. And look again, like, like you said, it's, it's really hard for it because we are not used to making that decision. And like, who am I to make that decision and how, you know, and then what, right? So, so one of the other things I ask women to do is to stop trying to figure out how let's just start with what.
Right. The how will come, the how we'll get figured out the how, like we don't need to worry about the how right now, because what we tend to do is go, but then how will I leave and where will I live? And will I, you know, how much money will I have? right. Everything is probably as Marie Forleo says, everything is figure outable, right? We'll, we'll be able to figure all of those details out.
Heather McG (27:28)
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (27:42)
So let's put that aside because that's the stopper right there. It's like, well, I don't know how I don't know how I'm going to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I can't. Okay. Let's pretend that stuff doesn't exist. Let's actually just look at the what first. If all the hows were figured out in advance and we have a magic wand, what would you want to do? And usually the answer is pretty clear.
Heather McG (28:06)
Yeah, this conversation, sadly, you know, this is such a common conversation, right? With the rate of divorce and women in not ideal situations. You know, I remember lately, recently I had a conversation with someone and she's not happy in her marriage, it's not working out. And she was like, but I can't leave, would, you know, because of this, that and the other. And, you know, trying to be gentle, you know, like when women are in that state, I'm not as direct as I am right now.
Kate Anthony (28:07)
for most women.
Yep. ⁓ huh.
Heather McG (28:34)
trying to be gentle with it and trying to see, talk to her about the fact that you are choosing to stay. She's like, no, I just, can't leave. It's like jettisoning that power. And I'm struggling to find the exact words. Hopefully, you know, I'm trying to communicate that there is an aspect of personal responsibility for your own life and you are choosing to stay even because the conditions will absolutely never be perfect for you to leave. That's not happening.
Kate Anthony (28:42)
⁓ that's right. Mm-hmm.
That's right, absolutely.
Sure,
exactly. And look, there is, I wanna be very mindful of the fact that when women leave abusive relationships is the most dangerous time in the relationship. 75 % of domestic homicides occur when someone leaves. So there are women who can't leave safely.
Heather McG (29:13)
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (29:27)
Right? They cannot leave alone. They cannot leave without serious support, help, intervention, all of that. Right? They can still leave. Look, are you gonna, can you leave without consequences? Of course not. Can you leave without, I mean, look, I think there are women who leave and have absolutely nothing. They are.
penniless, right? And and, you know, and they leave. Right. So the idea of like, I can't leave like, look, sometimes it really feels true. Right. ⁓ I would say I can't leave without serious support and intervention would be a more accurate descriptor. And I don't know anything about this person's marriage. I can't leave because.
Heather McG (30:06)
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (30:16)
We literally don't have money and I don't know. literally could not, know, if a lot of people don't have family support, they don't have the money they don't have, you know, and those are all very legitimate concerns. Most something.
Heather McG (30:20)
Right.
Yeah, the worries are
real. The circumstances are real. The consequences are real. And it's difficult because a lot of times it's, can't leave without help. I can't leave without these certain conditions. And then it starts to become where you are getting that part of everything is figure outable of trying to figure out how to set the stage to be able to leave and make a better life. Because the alternative is you stay where you are. And is that okay?
Kate Anthony (30:33)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
That's right.
Right. that is, and sometimes, you know, sometimes that the devil, you know, is more preferable. at least I know what this whole thing looks like and, know, and it's, and it's sad and tragic that women, you know, is going back to choosing to be a stay at home mom, right? Because it's really, you know, we put ourselves in that position, often when we are not
financially responsible and financially empowered in our relationships, it does become harder and harder to leave. And it's something like 95 % of people who leave who are being financially abused return because of money.
Heather McG (31:34)
Yeah, right. It's hard.
Kate Anthony (31:35)
you know, because, because yeah,
because when they're out, they, they, they can't afford, you know, diapers or whatever it is. Yeah. So it's, it's, it is tough. I mean, I hear what you're saying, right? I think there's a, there's a place to acknowledge the difficulty and then say, look, I get it. It's not easy, you know, but if we could make this happen for you, would you, would you
Heather McG (31:54)
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (31:59)
Would you want to, would you be willing? And sometimes the answer is no. And that's okay. Like that's a choice. That's a choice, but it is a choice, as you say.
Heather McG (32:02)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It is such
a complicated conversation because it's just like acknowledging the many complications of divorce and life and figuring things out and the trade-offs and you know, and you also on your, in your work,
You're very clear that the challenges that women face in divorce are exponentially increased for many women of color. Can you speak to that a little bit too?
Kate Anthony (32:31)
I think it's really important to look at our society as a whole and to recognize that any struggle that a white woman might have in, you know, leaving a marriage, becoming more financially independent are often more difficult.
for women of color who make 68 cents on the dollar rather than our 78 % of the dollar. I don't have the numbers in front of me, less. The gender pay gap is far worse for women of color. So there's a lot.
Heather McG (33:00)
Yeah, pay parity, yeah.
Kate Anthony (33:10)
there's a lot in our culture that makes all of this more difficult for women of color.
Heather McG (33:16)
Yeah. Well, too, yes, for sure. And so after we make the, you know, I like to say getting divorced is terrible. Being divorced is just fine. You know, like getting through that process and then you start to rebuild and it takes, you know, going from rock bottom to literally, I know for me, there were a lot of things I had to rebuild that I didn't expect. You know, I knew I would have to.
Kate Anthony (33:17)
Potentially. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Heather McG (33:40)
rebuild the way I thought about romantic relationships, you know, really work on myself, you know, rebuilding my self-esteem. I didn't realize how it touches literally everything. It changed my family of origin relationships. It changed my friendships. I lost a lot of friends. I built a lot of new friends, the importance of community. I just did not expect it to be as far reaching of a change as it ended up being. It was huge.
Kate Anthony (33:51)
everything.
Your friendships. Yep.
Yep. Yep.
It is,
it's so true. And the friendship thing is something that you just don't count on. I would, you I always tell people like, please count on it. Please count on the fact that your friends are gonna have really weird reactions to your divorce and that the people that you really thought were gonna be there for you won't be or might not be. And it's not.
heads has nothing to do with you. has to do with the mirror you're holding up to their relationships or whatever, but they are, you just, you don't count on it. And so I always say like, count on it, please count on it. Cause it's, it will, things will change in ways that are, can be so shocking. And you're like, Oh my God, I'm going through a fucking divorce. Do I also have to go through the like grieving my 20 year best?
friendship ending too, like at the same time and like, yeah, very often you do. Yeah.
Heather McG (34:58)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah,
I actually did lose a 20 year best friend through this process. And there was a particular point, and this was like maybe six months ish after I left. So I was like, you know, at the bottom still. And, you know, I was flailing around making a lot of bad choice. Well, I say they weren't dangerous choices. It's just the way you act when you were desperately depressed and anxious and going through a divorce and changing your entire life. And I was dating and all of those things.
Kate Anthony (35:05)
Me too.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yes,
Heather McG (35:29)
And I remember she
Kate Anthony (35:29)
totally.
Heather McG (35:30)
said to me, you know, I just, don't know who you are anymore. It feels like you're just like flailing around, trying to figure things out. And it really hurt my feelings at the time. But later when I had more clarity and I was a little bit more together, you know, and I let her go, you know, we're not friends anymore. But later when I had more clarity, I was like, that's what waking up and healing looks like. That's really what it looks like. It doesn't happen overnight. It takes time. And yeah, it's going to be messy.
Kate Anthony (35:55)
That's right.
Heather McG (35:57)
It is gonna be messy
Kate Anthony (35:57)
That's right.
Heather McG (35:58)
for a while and it's okay for friendships to change. I'm not saying she had an obligation to stick around for that, but that is the truth of what was happening. It's not that you are, life feels like a mess, but guess what? You're actually putting your life back together in a way that you want and need it to be. That's what's actually happening.
Kate Anthony (36:07)
Totally.
Yeah,
right. love that. I love that reframe because it's true. It's like, yeah, I am a mess right now. Yeah, like, yeah, you're right. You're right. And not only...
like the last thing you needed at that moment was her judgment, maybe some compassion, but also like, for the most part, like you realize when people are going through it, you're like, I'll just stand back and let them like, give them some space and time. Cause this is probably, you know, they're going, they're going through the thing, right? And that's why people who have gotten divorced will become your closest friends when you're getting divorced, because they get it, they know what's going on. And you know, the other thing that happens is,
Heather McG (36:41)
Too much.
Kate Anthony (36:53)
You know, very often the people who are the hardest on you during the process are the next to go. Right? Like they really are freaking out about what you're showing them about their own lives and relationships. And it's not comfortable for them. But then like usually like a year later, their marriages are ending too. And you're like, uh-huh. Look at that.
Heather McG (37:17)
It's all making sense now.
Kate Anthony (37:18)
And the, it's all making sense.
And then, you know, the other thing I'll say is that very often these are best friends when we are in these relationships are people that were chosen with sort of the same picker that chose the people that were married to. And I think this was true in my case. I had my two best friends I lost during my divorce. and sort of in the subsequent years and
What I realized over time was that these relationships were also toxic, that these relationships were also built on really fucked up power dynamic and power over and that the person I was becoming no longer aligned with the unconscious agreements that had been made 20 years prior in college.
Heather McG (37:48)
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (38:09)
And that I, I was the, I was actually becoming a person who no longer fit the relationships as they were constructed. And then actually losing those friendships was one of the best and healthiest things that ever happened because it meant that I was actually organically shifting across my whole life, not just like leaving a marriage, right? I was changing who I was in the world and in, and in relationships.
Heather McG (38:20)
Yep.
Kate Anthony (38:38)
across the board. Yeah.
Heather McG (38:40)
Yeah, I mean for women that
are diving in and working on themselves, data shows that women do tend to do that, it changes you in a 360 manner. It's not just how you date, it's not just how you do relationships, because I had the same realization, honestly, it kind of bowled me over a little bit, where I could pick out a few of my friendships in my life didn't work anymore, they didn't work for me, because I was different at that point. I don't know, it's fascinating.
Kate Anthony (38:49)
That's right.
That didn't work, right? You're not gonna keep playing.
It is, cause you're like, I'm not playing that role anymore. I'm not playing that role in any aspect of my life. And then people are like, but, but you, but you're supposed to.
Heather McG (39:12)
Yeah.
Yeah,
well, and two, something I think is interesting. So in greater numbers, women are choosing to stay single, you know, or they're, you know, they're like, I'm good, I'm good the way I am. Maybe I'll date, but you know, I'm not gonna get into something serious or anything long-term. I'm not gonna get married, which I think is a great way to figure out what really works for you. However, there are groups of women that do decide to get married again, whether second marriages, third marriages, and...
Kate Anthony (39:33)
I'm good. That's right.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Heather McG (39:49)
Unfortunately, those fail at an even greater rate than first marriages. What is about that? How can women stop making the same mistakes over and over again?
Kate Anthony (39:59)
If your response to your divorce is, well, he was an asshole, let me find someone who's not, and you don't do that work to figure out what happened, what growth do you need to do, and...
Heather McG (40:09)
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (40:20)
How do you need to evolve and grow and all and heal and all of those things? You're gonna make the same mistake and he's gonna be he's gonna look different. He's gonna, you know have a different job. Yeah, but like a few years in you're gonna be like, my god, he's the same guy so the only way to not Make the same mistake over and over again
is to do the work on yourself, heal those wounds, really figure out like, okay, what had me choose this person? Because usually it's our childhood trauma. It's usually unresolved shit from our childhood that we have to get down and dirty with a therapist about, or work with a coach to make different choices and to go slowly to really acknowledge the flags as they come up.
right. And, and it's, and it, all of that requires a certain level of work to, know, you're, you're, you're switching your picker really. Right. And that's, that's on you.
Heather McG (41:22)
Yeah.
Yeah, I, know, everyone can handle these things in all kinds of different ways and we're all different. ⁓ I do think what can be helpful is making sure you create space to really do some reflection and some room to figure out what's going on, what's going on with you. I have one friend and she is just, her story makes me crack up so hard. She was married twice and she was like, well, I had to marry a man twice to figure out I'm actually gay.
Kate Anthony (41:29)
Mm-hmm.
Ta-da!
Heather McG (41:50)
She was like, if I
would have taken a minute, I think I would have figured it out a little sooner.
Kate Anthony (41:55)
That's right. Well, there she is. Now she's now she knows. ⁓ Congratulations. I love it. I love it. Yeah, listen. And I think you got it. You do have to take that space. I think so many of us go out and start dating quickly after because we want to we want to avoid the pain. We want to avoid what you know what's showing up in our emotional inbox. We want to like
Heather McG (41:59)
She figured it out, which makes me laugh. ⁓ Yeah, yes.
Kate Anthony (42:23)
not deal. And when we do that, we rob ourselves of the ability to heal and grow and make different choices. Right. And so you will see people get, get divorced and like, just get out there and start playing the field and dating and, and listen, I think there's nothing wrong with dating. in that first year after divorce, I think it's a great way to get your mojo back, especially if you were criticized or emotionally abused, right? You can like,
Heather McG (42:33)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (42:51)
⁓ you know, my favorite thing is like my ex husband told me that I wasn't a sexual being in our marriage. And that's why we weren't having sex. Not because he was fucking everything else that moved. No, it was because I was not a sexual being. And when I, and I started to believe that I was like, I mean, maybe it's true, but it's like, no, I didn't feel emotionally safe in that relationship. Did not feel emotionally safe enough to open myself up.
Heather McG (43:01)
He was cheating. ⁓
Yeah.
Right.
Kate Anthony (43:18)
to have sex with somebody, I'm sorry, who was abusing me, right? ⁓
Heather McG (43:23)
There is
such a powerful transition in what you're describing right now and moving from, you and you hit on this earlier, which this has been a theme. I think this is going to be my big takeaway about how we wait for men to tell us, they wait for men to give, we wait for men to give us permission. We wait for men to make the first move in all kinds of ways. And there's this transition through divorce, where we stop listening to being told who we are, being told what we can do, being told what we're capable of to...
Kate Anthony (43:35)
huh.
That's right.
Heather McG (43:51)
standing on your own two feet and you are who you are and being confident in that, which is really beautiful. And there's a lot of joy to that experience, I think.
Kate Anthony (43:55)
Absolutely. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I love, you know, what my therapist said to me was like when I was first early dating, right? And I was like, turns out I really like sex. Turns out I think I actually am a sexual being. Turns out like I'm really good at this and it's really fun, right? And she said,
Heather McG (44:12)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (44:21)
Right. So I was like, was relearning. was like, oh, he identified me as not a sexual being. Actually, I take I take that power back. I am a very sexual being. Thank you very much. Right. And that was a powerful experience. And what my therapist said to me at the time was she goes great. And that I want you to remember has nothing to do with the man that you're having sex with right now. Right. That's yours and it's portable. And you get to bring it. I love it. The idea of it being portable. Right. You get to bring that.
Heather McG (44:32)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (44:50)
Anywhere that you go you get to bring that into any relationship it belongs to you and it was so powerful for me to Recognize that like I no longer got to be had to be identified as Whatever the thing was that my ex said that I was I got to identify myself and it got to be mine Right. It wasn't that I was identifying through somebody else Telling me that I'm this thing
Heather McG (44:52)
Yep, it belongs to you.
Right.
Kate Anthony (45:19)
Right? ⁓
Heather McG (45:21)
There is a lot
of joy in being divorced, which I know sounds funny, but I really believe it. That getting divorced, no joy in that. But there's a lot of joy in being divorced. It's just after fighting for your life so hard and then you find it and you put it together, like it's worth it. As we are getting wrapped up here, so there's a lot of women out there and some of them may be listening, either trying to figure out if they're gonna leave or they're in the early throes of divorce.
Kate Anthony (45:25)
No, tons. I agree.
Absolutely.
Absolutely, I agree.
Heather McG (45:47)
For those women in the closet staring at nothing as you did so many years ago, what would you like to say to those?
Kate Anthony (45:53)
say to them what I always say, which is that you deserve to be happy. There's that wonderful oft quoted Mary Oliver quote that says, is your one wild and precious life. What will you do with your one wild and precious life? And it really is that this is it. This is it.
You get to make you get to be happy. You get to make choices that make you happy, that fulfill you. You get to be, quote, selfish and it's OK. The other thing that I always say to women who are moms who are questioning this is and it's a very clarifying question usually is, is this the relationship you want for your children? Right, is this is this if if if you were to take.
the model of your relationship and hand it to your children? Would you want that for them? And if the answer is no, just know that we tend to repeat the patterns of our parents. And that's possibly how you got to where you are now. And if you want to break the cycle and you don't want this, if you don't want this for your kids, it's on you to break the cycle.
Heather McG (47:05)
I think that's super practical because I think it's just the nature of moms. know, like I can on a personal level, that's how I figured it out. I think it's a really good practical question to ask that will get you to an answer that is helpful.
Kate Anthony (47:07)
Mm-hmm.
we are, we are often as moms more apt to do something for our kids than we would ever do for ourselves. Right. Which is why when I ask women that question, it can be like, Whoa, no. Right. And then all of a sudden the mama bears out and you're like, okay, okay. Let's go with that. Right.
Heather McG (47:36)
Yeah.
Kate Anthony (47:40)
Um, we will do things for our kids that we don't have the strength of, or presence of mind or clarity to do for ourselves. And so if, if that, if that is a clarifying answer for you, then go for it.
Heather McG (47:56)
Yeah. Kate, thank you so much for being here today. I so appreciate you making the time to come and share your story. Where can people find you if they want to work with you or hear more from you?
Kate Anthony (48:04)
Thank you. This has been a great conversation. I really appreciate it. ⁓ everyone can just find me on my website. It's the easiest place to go and it leads to everywhere else. And that's Kate Anthony.com. You will find resources on there. If you want to work with me, there's dropdowns on how to do that. and, I have, I have things at different price points. I've got online programs, and then I've got a amazing group coaching program for women going through divorce.
And then I work one-on-one with women all over the world.
Heather McG (48:32)
It's amazing. And I'm gonna, I will link Kate's information in the show notes so it's really easy for you to get a hold of her. I wanna thank you so much for being here and I wanna thank everyone who's been listening today, especially those of you who are on your own journey and for the gals thinking about getting divorced, you get one life. So just think about that a little bit. We hope you have a good week and we will see you next Tuesday.
Kate Anthony (48:33)
Thanks.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.