Career Pivots with Clothilde Ewing
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Description
In this engaging conversation, Heather McG interviews Clothilde Ewing, exploring her nonlinear career journey from producing for Oprah to her current role in nonprofit communications and as an author of children's books. They discuss the importance of being open to change, the impact of significant career endings, and the inspiration behind Clothilde's Stella series. The conversation also touches on motherhood, the vulnerability of sharing personal stories, and the lessons learned through life's transitions.
About Clothilde Ewing
Clothilde has spent her career communicating through journalism, entertainment. politics and nonprofits. The throughline with all of these jobs is that she was doing her thing behind the scenes. That all changed when she had kids. She was inspired to start writing after reading a New York Times opinion piece by her now-editor, Denene Millner, titled: “Black Kids Don’t Want to Read About Harriet Tubman All the Time.” Her goal is for people to see more children of color in books that are not defined primarily by race or struggle, but belonging and joy. She lives in Chicago with her husband and two children.
Follow Clothilde on Instagram: @clothildeewing or @stellalovesroger
Find Clothilde online: www.clothildewing.com
Transcript
Heather Mcginley (00:41)
Hi everyone. So my guest today is Clothilde Ewing. I met Clothilde a very long time ago. Like at this point,
think it might be multiple decades, because we were both producers for Oprah I think working for Oprah finds you together for life. We spent more than a couple of weekends together and a number of all-nighters, I'm pretty sure, over the years that we worked together. Now, I just want to say on a personal note, Clothilde is amazing as a human being. Every Oprah producer was good. Like, you don't work there if you're not good, but Clothilde was really good.
She started at CBS News, moved to entertainment, which is where we met, and then joined the press team for Obama's re-election campaign in 2012, and now is in non-profits as the vice president of strategic communications at the Chicago Community Trust. You have a very impressive title. and she is also something, and I'm gonna show this, if you're watching on YouTube or Spotify, you can see this. She's the author of the Stella Children's Picture Book Series, that we're a big fan of in our house.
I have two of them up here and we actually have the first one, but my kids lost it in my house. They apparently were reading it and left it somewhere, which I think is a high compliment. And today I have Clo here because she has created an incredible career and I would call it nonlinear, full of endings, all kinds of different jobs, but it's always been at a high level. And I, as an outsider, I would say every role I've seen you have has created a positive difference in the world in different ways. So I'm so happy to have you here.
Clothilde Ewing (01:47)
Definitely.
Mm.
Thanks for having me.
Heather Mcginley (02:08)
Now, Clo, can you talk to us about how you've navigated and thought about these career endings and beginnings throughout your
Clothilde Ewing (02:17)
You know, it's interesting because when you first reached out to me about this podcast, I thought about that a lot. And the reality of the situation is that I was never that person who planned my career out five, 10, 15, 20 years out. I've always been both impressed by and freaked out by the people who think that they know what they're going to do for the rest of their lives.
Heather Mcginley (02:37)
Yeah, yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (02:39)
I can say when I went to college, I was a broadcast journalism and political science major. I wasn't sure which way I was going to go. I was that kid who loved to the press and this week at like eight years old, I was a political nerd. and I loved watching the news, but I didn't know really whether I was going to pursue the TV path, the news path, or I was going to pursue journalism. And I remember, my senior year.
We had different news stations come to college. went to Syracuse. I graduated from the Newhouse school and I will never forget this gentleman from Arkansas who was trying to recruit me to go to the station. And he said, you know, 80 % of the time you don't realize you're in Arkansas. And I was like, well, what about the other 20 %? And no, no offense to people who live in Arkansas and the great state of Arkansas, but
I was from Cleveland, Ohio. I lived in New York and that is not where I saw myself. But I was able to pursue a news career for a few years out of school. I worked internationally and then I came back to the States and worked at Oprah. And, you know, I would say with each opportunity that I've had in retrospect, it's because I was open to doing something different.
Heather Mcginley (03:55)
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (03:56)
I think
again, it's because I didn't have that five, 10, 15, 20 year path and didn't have that all mapped out that when opportunities presented themselves or when endings were clearly in the future, then I opened up my mind to what was possible. When I decided to leave news, there were definitely some professors and colleagues who were like, what are you doing? You're going to go work for Oprah?
should I take your general journalism degree back? But I thought about part of the reason I got into TV in the first place and it was because I loved the Oprah show. I loved the storytelling. I loved hearing about people's lives. And so it didn't seem to me like I was leaving journalism. It just seemed like I was going to pursue it in a different way. And I was going to tell different types of stories. So again, I think it was just opening my mind.
Heather Mcginley (04:26)
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (04:50)
to different opportunities with each job.
Heather Mcginley (04:53)
What kind of sounds like too, cause I think we've all met, you know, there are people who are very, you know, driven in a different way. Where, like you said, they have like their 10 year map all created. And I kind of, and I know this is a yes, no question. I would love to hear more from you about this. Do you feel like you got more out of your life and your career by going the other way in terms of being open to changes and turning left and turning right? Cause it sure seems that way to me.
Clothilde Ewing (05:20)
I think so. think so. And listen, different things work for different people. And so I think that for people who have had it mapped and have followed that mapping, they're probably very happy with their path. I think for people who have had a map and have decided to pivot, they're probably thankful that they pivoted. For me, I don't know if it was just the lack of planning or it's just not in my constitution.
to think out that far in advance, but I feel very grateful that I have been open. Now, I will say this too, that there have been a couple of jobs that I've had that came to natural endings and it allowed me to ask myself, all right, do I want to continue down a similar path or do I want to do something different? You know, I'm sure you saw on your feed because we follow a number of the same people that
Earlier this week, was the 14th anniversary of the show ending. I was like, my God, that was 14 years ago. Now, if the show was still on.
Heather Mcginley (06:19)
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (06:22)
Well, that I'd still be there. I don't know for sure that I would have left and pursued something different. Now, I had the opportunity once the show was ending to stay on and to stay at the Rosie show and to do things for OWN. And I was able to ask myself, take a step back, okay, is this what I still want to be doing? Or is this an opportunity to pivot and do something else?
Heather Mcginley (06:37)
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (06:48)
same with the campaign. When the campaign ended, I could say, all right, do I want to go down this path or is this an opportunity to do something else? So I, I definitely feel lucky in that regard as well, because I had, I had opportunities to really, really reflect on what had been and what could be going forward.
Heather Mcginley (06:51)
Yeah.
Yeah, a lot of our, our mutual friends between Clo and I might've mentioned something about, you know, 14, cause we were all there. I think there were only two people who weren't there at the last show and it was me and one of our Booker friends. got sent to the book festival in New York city. We were the only two people that missed it. And I was a little sad. I was like, is this, yes, it's, yes.
Clothilde Ewing (07:24)
no!
⁓ no! Were you back for the party?
Heather Mcginley (07:32)
I flew back immediately because I was in the, it's like the, you know I'm talking about is that big book festival in New York City that happens around this time every year. so everyone, was a, it was a big deal when we shot the last show, when you work for Oprah and if it works, like there are very particular people that that job works for. You really do live there. You are, create your own family.
Clothilde Ewing (07:35)
Okay.
Heather Mcginley (07:53)
We went through so much together. Like we are united in our mission to tell other people's stories, make a positive difference in the world. And then we go have a drink at a bar afterwards, if the bar was still open by the time we were done working. It was, I mean, it's a rough job, but if it's right for you, it works. And we all really create this little family. So the last day was, it was a big thing, a big emotional thing for all of us. But you are making me think about, there were two big endings.
Clothilde Ewing (08:04)
Right, right, right. That's the truth.
Heather Mcginley (08:20)
just for anyone who wasn't there or maybe isn't familiar, the Oprah show ended. And then a couple of years later, she pulled out of Chicago entirely. So I left in the second ending, Clo left in the first ending, I left in the second. And by the time I left, I think I'd been there 12 years. And I remember, just like you, I was like, I'm ready for the next thing, because you're right. I think when it works, even though the job is really tough, you still love it.
Clothilde Ewing (08:30)
Got it.
Yeah.
Heather Mcginley (08:43)
and I think a lot of us would, cause you're right. I think maybe I'd still be there too at that point. Cause it is really wonderful, but I'm thankful for it because personally, just like you, it made me just like, I'm okay. This is like pushing me to go find something else. I don't think I would have done that on my own if I hadn't been like a baby bird pushed out of the nest.
Clothilde Ewing (09:01)
After she had announced, but before the show ended, like after she had announced to staff, can't remember how closely she announced to us that it was ending and then announced to the world. But I went to a good friend's father's funeral. He had passed away from pancreatic cancer. And I remember listening to all the tributes and so many people were talking about
Heather Mcginley (09:07)
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (09:25)
how much he loved what he did and loved his family and all of that, but loved what he did and how consistent it was with who he was as a person. And it really struck me. It really struck me. It hit a chord. And I realized I did care deeply about the work that we were doing at the Oprah show. But.
Heather Mcginley (09:31)
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (09:47)
I wasn't sure about that next iteration. And so for me, it was, I reflected a lot on that funeral and reflected on where I was in my life and whether there was something I could be doing differently. And it was around the time that there was a lot of rhetoric around then President Obama and name calling and all of that. And ⁓
Heather Mcginley (10:09)
right, yeah, yeah. Yep.
Clothilde Ewing (10:12)
I decided I could be doing something different with my life and something that I thought would set us up for a better way of life.
Heather Mcginley (10:19)
I do have to, there is a little bit of a joke in there with the story you just shared, just a little one of, well, I think of moving from Oprah to Obama. It's not like you went from Oprah to like a no-new thing. I'm gonna go help get Obama elected.
Clothilde Ewing (10:29)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it is. is. Yeah, I do. I do recognize when I look at my my resume from time to time, that I have been very, very lucky to work for people that I really believe in. And I think have made the world a better place. For sure. But I don't need to work for people who've got like worldwide name recognition. I'm open.
Heather Mcginley (10:53)
Yes. Well, and that kind of makes me come to my next point of, you you've done such different things. Like you see the connection of storytelling in there, you know, but I've also noticed the roles that you've taken on do prioritize that there is a mission base to it in terms of making positive change. Can you talk about what is important to you in the roles that you have taken on?
Clothilde Ewing (10:56)
Thank
You know, I have realized of myself, and this isn't always a positive, but I've realized for myself that I tend to be all in. And if I'm going to be all in, then I need to care deeply about the work. And I need to feel like I'm making a difference. Now that I'm in my midlife, I'm trying to get better about balance. You know, I do acupuncture a few times a week.
I definitely try to prioritize self-care in a way that I haven't always. But if I'm going to dedicate however many hours a week to a job, I need to care about it. And I feel lucky and blessed that I've had the opportunity to do that. know, one job that I had, I worked for a startup personalized medicine company and
Heather Mcginley (11:46)
Mm-hmm.
Clothilde Ewing (12:08)
That is really important work. I still am in awe of the work that the scientists are doing there. And I'm glad that I helped play a part in that company's early years. But I also reached a point there when I thought, okay, this isn't getting me up out of bed in the morning. It's important work, but it's not my important work.
And that's when I shifted to where I'm at right now and that feels right.
Heather Mcginley (12:30)
yeah.
I think it's a good thing to think about because I think at times, I don't know if it's something women do or what, but I hear you and what you are talking about whenever you're working on something that you know is valuable, that you know is important, but you're just not in on it. And it does go to a good, it's a good opportunity to look at yourself and think about what is my calling? What is my important work? Where is the point of connection for me where I feel like I can make the best difference?
And sometimes it's just, this is a great organization and I will donate to you, but I don't think it's my thing to get all in the middle of. And then there are other things where you want to get deeply involved. And that's a good thing to think about.
Clothilde Ewing (13:02)
Right.
Right, and no judgment.
is a need for everyone in different places, but just because something is somebody else's calling, no shade if it's not yours. You just need to find your thing.
Heather Mcginley (13:16)
Yeah.
Well, I think you'll laugh about this. So this morning I spoke with Menaika Gamble for this podcast and she's an ultra runner. Like she does 155 mile races through the desert. Yeah. Yeah. So like that's
Clothilde Ewing (13:34)
⁓ wow. I'm happy when I finish
four.
Heather Mcginley (13:39)
Well, that's kind of an example of that is, you when I started the conversation with her, I was like, this is amazing. I am in awe of you. And that's a good example of this is your amazing work. It's not my amazing work. But then by the end, she had kind of talked me into signing up for Ultra. I was like, ⁓ no, Manika, this is how it happened.
Clothilde Ewing (13:55)
Wow.
through,
are you gonna do it through a desert?
Heather Mcginley (14:00)
No, I think I'm going to start with and you're going to laugh. I think I might start with a 50.
Clothilde Ewing (14:07)
I mean, so let me tell you, ran one, yeah, I'm like, that is, I cannot even like wrap my head around it. I ran one marathon and this was back in my early twenties. And I was living in London at the time. The marathon was in Dublin and I had trained, but I didn't train as well as I could have. And I think that's part of like in your twenties, your body gets you grace and you can largely get through it.
Heather Mcginley (14:10)
I was like, I'm pulling you back from the cliff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (14:35)
But I'll never forget, I was probably at like mile 19, 20, and this guy that I had never met before was limping. And I needed a reason to stop. And so I was like, oh, are you okay? Are you okay? And he was like, oh, I'm fine. I'm just gonna get to the tent. I was like, oh, you shouldn't be by yourself. I'll walk with you. Because I needed any excuse to stop.
Heather Mcginley (14:47)
⁓ no!
Clothilde Ewing (14:58)
And so I stopped and I walked with him and he's probably like, okay, who is this crazy American? I walk with him till we get to a tent and then I'm forced to start running again. And I ran, I finished. I was so sore the next day. And so for the next like probably 15, maybe 20 years, I thought, all right, I'm gonna run one more and I wanna see what I can do if I train properly.
Heather Mcginley (15:23)
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (15:24)
Then about two years ago, I was like, forget that. Nope, I'm fine with my little two, three times a week, four miles and under. Do you? I've got nothing to prove. So enjoy your 50 miles. Tell me about it. ⁓ Well, not doing that second marathon and I've made peace with it. I would like to touch my toes before I run another marathon. That is the goal.
Heather Mcginley (15:37)
You've accomplished enough in your life.
Yeah, well, I think it's a good idea. And I know we're getting off track here. We'll go back to the path here in a second. But this is I think you'll laugh about this. My mom signed up for a marathon that is happening in two weeks and she's been training. It's a walking marathon. And she asked me to do it with her. And I said, yes, I will walk that with you. And then she called me a few weeks ago. She was like, Heather, training is not going real great. And I know you're probably going to be really disappointed. But I think I need to downgrade to the half marathon. Mom.
Clothilde Ewing (15:51)
Sorry.
Good for her. Good for her.
Heather Mcginley (16:15)
It's okay. This is a big sacrifice for me, but I...
Clothilde Ewing (16:20)
I mean, you're like, thank you.
Heather Mcginley (16:22)
I was. Yeah, and our family is all laughing. But anyway, it just made me laugh. She was like, I know you're gonna be so disappointed to just do the half. And I was like, I think I'll survive some.
Clothilde Ewing (16:31)
Yeah, I'm good, thanks.
Heather Mcginley (16:33)
We'll go get pizza. All right, so back on the path. Now, Clothilde, you have talked about how you were inspired. I love the stories you have around writing the Stella picture book series, because some of them are really moving and meaningful. Some of them are really cute. And I think also your mission in creating this, think, is so great. And as I mentioned, we're fans of it in this house. Now, you have said you were inspired to start writing after you read a particular piece in the New York Times. Can you tell us that story?
Clothilde Ewing (16:42)
Mmm.
Yes. So I think that so much of life has to do with timing. So I will tell the story, but I will also say that for years, I've gotten the Sunday New York Times. I've always enjoyed reading it. Once I had kids, there were many weeks where it stayed in the blue package because I couldn't get to it. There were some weeks where I read just the style section. Some weeks were just the front page.
And this particular Sunday, it was in March of 2018, I happened to get through the whole paper, which hadn't happened in years. And that's important because again, I think timing and signs that you get out of life are there if you're open to hearing them. But I came across an article that was in the paper titled, She Wants More Than MLK at Night Time. And the article was written by my now editor, Danine Milner.
And the article talked about how there wasn't enough diversity in children's books, which I know is something that we've, we've heard over the years, but where this article was different for me is that it, it double clicked on that. So yeah, it made the point that there wasn't enough diversity in children's books, but that the diversity that did exist was often one or two notes. So it was about overcoming struggle or it was about excellence. Those books.
Heather Mcginley (17:55)
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (18:14)
are really important. We have a lot of those books in our house. I read them to my kids still. read them to them when they were younger. But the point that she made is that there weren't enough books in the world that featured children of color, children of color that were just about being a kid, were just about imagination and joy. Books that weren't primarily about race or identity, but about being a kid.
Heather Mcginley (18:33)
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (18:42)
And it really struck a chord with me. I was nodding. I remember cutting the article out. I wasn't sure why at the time. I cut out the article. I put it on my vision board because, know, since we used to work for Oprah, we had vision boards. I put it on my vision board and I walked past it for a few weeks, to be honest. I wasn't sure why I put it there. ⁓ I was loved reading, but I never thought of myself as a future children's book writer or author.
Heather Mcginley (18:55)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Clothilde Ewing (19:08)
And then I realized that I could do something about that. could try. And so I decided to try and start writing children's books that were about children and their imaginations, children who happen to be black. And I developed the Stella series, which has been really, really, really meaningful. And probably the highlight of any, it feels a little strange to call it a job, but probably the highlight of my.
professional career.
Heather Mcginley (19:36)
Well, and they are, again, if anyone's watching our video, they are beautifully illustrated. The stories are so fun. See a little bit of it here. But they're really great. there's something else you wrote too that I just thought was the sweetest story. As a mom, think sometimes we do things. there are things that we believe in for us as individuals, but they do impact our kids. And you told a story about...
Clothilde Ewing (19:54)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Heather Mcginley (19:58)
you know, on launch day and it was actually in your daughter's second grade classroom. And I would love for you to tell that story because I thought it was really meaningful.
Clothilde Ewing (20:08)
thank you. Yes, so my children go to Montessori school here in Chicago. And so I say that to say that the classes are mixed-age classes. Stella was in a class with first, second, and third graders. And it was launch day. And so I got invited to read the story in her classroom. And I was so nervous. I mean, number one, it was like my first reading in front of kids.
And number two, it was one of my kids. And as you know, children are brutally honest. They will tell you what they think for better or worse, no filter. And I had asked Stella beforehand if she was okay with it. And she said, you know, sure. Very nonchalant. She was open to it. And so I came in and her teacher, Marcella, had Stella do the introduction.
Heather Mcginley (20:40)
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (20:58)
And so Stella stood up and she was holding the book and she said, this is Clothilde Ewing. And she is an author of Stella Kate's The Son of and a mother to me. And it was the best introduction I've ever had. was just, it was very sweet. And I don't think she realized this at the time, but it was being a mother to her and to her brother Jackson that led me to.
write these books in the first place. And, you know, maybe one day they'll fully appreciate that, but that was the impetus to me writing and being there that day.
Heather Mcginley (21:26)
Yeah.
As a mom, what are some of the things, you they're seeing you do all these really great things. What do you, as a mom, what do you feel like you are hoping to pass down to them?
Clothilde Ewing (21:44)
I think number one, I hope that they're good people. I want them to be good people who realize that the world is bigger than them. I hope that they find something professionally that they find joy in. know, their dad is a lawyer and I write children's books and as they said, I've had a lot of jobs. I work at a nonprofit now.
And I've been lucky that I found jobs that have brought me joy. I hope that they realize they don't need to follow my path or his path, but they find a path that works for them and that brings them joy. It really isn't any more prescriptive than that. Don't be an asshole and find something that brings you joy.
Heather Mcginley (22:29)
That would be, we gotta write, I think that will be a quote card for the, your episode. That will be perfect. Something that Clo and I were talking about before we started recording, but I'm still thinking about it. personally, I have not come to resolution on it yet. Like I'm still like working it out in my brain. Clo and I were talking about how I'm actually going through the book publishing process myself. And for Clo and I having spent,
Clothilde Ewing (22:32)
Yeah, okay.
Heather Mcginley (22:52)
both so much of our career telling other people's stories and then moving into being an author, the spotlight's on you. You're actually putting yourself out there and there's, think that's scary and there's a vulnerability there. Can you talk about that mind switch and what that taught you about yourself?
Clothilde Ewing (23:08)
Yeah, I'll be honest, really thought I could compartmentalize more than it made sense. I remember a neighbor, there was a cover reveal for the first Stella Keeps the Sun Out book. And I knew that the cover reveal was happening. And I think I just thought like, people would find it and bookstore owners would find it and librarians would find it and it would end up in the stores, right?
Heather Mcginley (23:31)
Mm-hmm.
Clothilde Ewing (23:34)
And then my neighbor texts me and she goes, my God, did you write a children's book? And I, and I thought at the time of like, my God, I've been outed. because I thought I could just live in this lane and these people wouldn't know. and it was an uncomfortable moment, but one that I forced myself to, to, I'm not going to say get over, but I forced myself to get through.
I very intentionally, like I said before, I was a broadcast journalism and a political science major. And when I went to college, I thought I was going to be a TV news reporter. But then when I found out you could be a producer, I'm like, sign me up. I can help tell the stories and I don't have to be on camera. And so I really have had a career behind the scenes. And so this was the first time where I.
Heather Mcginley (24:09)
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (24:21)
had to be out there, whether it's out there in front of a group of second graders, which again is terrifying, or whether it is talking to a reporter or talking to a podcaster. That was a very new space for me. initially, I can't even remember the name, which is terrible. I kind of came up with this alter ego to help me through it. Like, this isn't Quotil viewing. is da, da, da. Totally. Well, was Bridget who gave me that idea.
Heather Mcginley (24:43)
of Beyonce and Sasha Fierce.
Clothilde Ewing (24:49)
So I had this this alter ego that would help me through it. And then now I think about the random pictures that I get on Instagram from moms whose daughters dressed up as Stella for Character Day or who wanted to dress up as Stella for the latest release or.
a little girl who came up to me when I was reading at her school dressed up as Stella in a very similar outfit. I wrote these stories for them. And so in many ways, it forces me to get out of my own head, like get over yourself. This isn't about you. This is about them. And that's been helpful. I still get butterflies for sure, but it really is so much bigger than me.
Heather Mcginley (25:19)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, I've been doing a lot of thinking about this lately too. And I have been, you are farther along the path than I am. So I think you have more resolution on how this all works than I do. Something that I've been struck by, it was really scary for me to start talking about my book and start talking to people about it and the content of it. And I have actually been pleasantly surprised. Like I was so hard on myself before and so scared, but as I have started to be more open about it,
It is interesting how it drives connection. There has been a really positive response and it sounds like that was the same experience for you too, that it is so scary, but that is the way you connect with people too, in being honest and vulnerable and true. Things you learned in kindergarten, I guess.
Clothilde Ewing (26:17)
A hundred
percent. And the reason I'm assuming, so, you know, check me if I'm wrong, but I assume that your main intention in writing a book isn't, you know, for self gratifying reasons, but it is because you believe on some level that your story can help somebody else or your story being out in the world is something that will benefit.
a particular conversation. And so it that helps you get over, get over yourself and your fears and your anxiety a little bit around it. You know, I say to kids when I do book readings, so many of them have such great imaginations and, and yet they're a little nervous about sharing their stories. And it's like, listen, if you love that story,
Heather Mcginley (27:05)
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (27:07)
there's somebody else out there who's going to love that story. You just need to find your person. You need to find your people. And that's true for any story, whether it's a fiction book or more importantly, a memoir.
Heather Mcginley (27:10)
Yeah.
Well, you're making me think about, this was a life lesson I learned from Candi Carter, who was another of our mutual Oprah producers. She has a lot of zingers. The one that she has, she should write a book. She had...
Clothilde Ewing (27:27)
She just...
I'm sure
it's coming at some point.
Heather Mcginley (27:32)
I was like listen to her Facebook message by the way Clo, and I think you should write a book like already done You know at the time I was a very young producer And I just asked her like is there any advice for me that you think I should think about and she said you know Integrity is telling the truth and being that one person in the room when we're talking about ideas for shows if you think it's great I respect you for speaking up
Clothilde Ewing (27:37)
Right.
Heather Mcginley (27:55)
in saying that you think it's great, even if everybody else thinks it's terrible, because guess what? If you like it, other people are going to like it. If it resonates with you, it's going to resonate with other people. And that's integrity. That means I can trust you. And you're being your real self and sharing what you really think. was like, that is huge. And you just came out with that. Like asked her in five seconds, she just came out with it.
Clothilde Ewing (28:08)
Yeah.
And it's so true.
It's so true. And I'd say alternatively, it means speaking up. If you think that a friend or a producer or show is going down the wrong path, it doesn't mean that you're necessarily right, but it means that you're speaking your truth and you're speaking your truth in pursuit of what you think would be a better outcome. It's not always easy, but it's, it's important.
Heather Mcginley (28:24)
Yeah.
Now for you too, part of moving from behind the scenes into a front-facing creative project, what does it mean to be creative to you?
Clothilde Ewing (28:48)
Mmm.
For me, it's tapping into my own imagination and working that muscle, which hadn't been worked in a long time. So it means tapping into that muscle. means seeing where it goes. It means being open to different stories. I keep notebooks in different purses, by my bed, in the kitchen.
Heather Mcginley (29:12)
Ha
Clothilde Ewing (29:17)
just in case I see something or think of something that sparks an idea. And I think it is for me anyway, accepting that no idea is, is stupid and that there is a potential path in just about anything, you know, like one day, and I include this in the school presentations I do.
One day I was driving my kids to school and we looked up and there were probably what seems like 200 pigeons on top of the building. And I mean, there's probably more like 40, but it seemed like a ton.
Heather Mcginley (29:48)
my God.
didn't expect that to be the end of the sentence.
Clothilde Ewing (29:57)
200 pigeons on top of the building. And I look over and I was like, my gosh, look at all those pigeons. What do think they're doing? And then as we're driving to school, we're like coming up with this story about what the pigeons were doing on top of the building, like how they got there, where they're going next. And when I got home, I wrote in my notebook, 200 pigeons on the building. And I haven't done anything with it yet, but I found a picture, a similar picture, and I include that in.
my presentations and I go around and ask kids like, what do think they're doing? And I've heard like the wildest things, everything from they're having a pizza party to they're choosing the next president. And I say to the kids, I'm like, be open. You know, when you're walking home from school, check out that bird. What's he doing? What's that car doing? What's it, know, like creativity to me means being open to what's next and coming up with stories and having fun with your imagination.
Heather Mcginley (30:46)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I read an article recently that really got me thinking. It was talking about the reason art, music, painting, they just like, that's your highway into your soul and who people are that, you know, that can't be captured by, you know, technical specifics that that's the highway into people's hearts and souls. And I just like, have been thinking about that, like, and it's so specific to each person. Like this is me extrapolating, but then I think about that's different for every person. And so like,
Clothilde Ewing (31:03)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Heather Mcginley (31:18)
what
resonates with me is gonna be different from what resonates with you and that's what makes this special, you know? ⁓ So I'm gonna zoom out just a little bit. In terms of life's endings, like overall, have there been any particular endings for you to your point? Sometimes they're involuntary and sometimes they're endings that we choose. Have there been any endings in your life that have pushed you to grow the most?
Clothilde Ewing (31:24)
Yep, yep, totally.
I think it was probably leaving the Oprah show at the end because even though I didn't have a 10, 20, 30 year plan, before she announced the show was ending, I didn't see myself leaving. It was never anything that I saw myself ending. I was going to be there. I loved my job. I loved my friends. I loved working at a place where
So many women were in charge and unapologetically so. And that was hard. It ended up positively for sure, but it forced me to think about what was next. I would say that all of my other endings or transitions were easier because of that one, because everything was okay.
after leaving and finding my next job, I knew that that would be the case the next time and the next time. You my kids joke around like I've had so many jobs. And I don't think I've had that many, but I guess I've had enough that, you know, I ended up on my feet afterwards.
Heather Mcginley (32:46)
Yeah, well, yeah, you're right. There were very few men that worked at the Oprah show. was very women unapologetically crafting the story, crafting the business. I remember my first job after leaving Oprah was male dominated and I actually, I had to figure it out a little bit because the vibe was very different.
Clothilde Ewing (33:00)
Mmm.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. And I would say my next job after leaving was...
was probably more even, or maybe it was a bit more male dominated, And that was a transition. That was a transition. I don't know that we'll ever work in a place that was like the Oprah show, ⁓ both in terms of the demographic makeup, in terms of.
Heather Mcginley (33:22)
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (33:25)
where we are as a country and the openness to hearing other people's stories. I think it was a really special time and opportunity.
Heather Mcginley (33:34)
Yeah. Now as we're closing out, I'm going to ask you a question that I know you recognize from back in our Oprah days, but I want to know what you think. What do know for sure?
Clothilde Ewing (33:42)
What I know for sure is that change is hard, but often necessary and that when
I go through it and get to the other side. better for it.
Heather Mcginley (33:55)
was so clear, just like a really good producer of craft. A really good producer and writer. Yeah, no, it's true. Something that's been kind of funny in these conversations I've been having for this podcast, you know, because some people are sharing some really challenging stories, like they could have lost their life to some of the things that were going on for them. And it was really interesting, you know, for most of them, you know, they have come to resolution.
Clothilde Ewing (33:59)
Nice. Nice. Nice. Yeah.
Yeah.
Heather Mcginley (34:20)
This is from like 10, 15, 20 years ago. So they have really come far from that point. Something that struck me, we're all laughing and smiling. And like, I think about that time when you're in it, you just think the world's over. And it is, I think that gives a little bit of hope that eventually you really do get through it, even though the moment of it is so
Clothilde Ewing (34:40)
I think that's, that's absolutely right. Um, I don't in any way want to, um, diminish how hard it can be when you're going through it. Uh, I definitely had a few, um, different scenarios and situations that I've gone through where you go through the questions. Why me? think you're checking everything off, doing all the things that you're supposed to be doing. Um, and.
I wouldn't wish that period on other people or on myself again for sure. But when you come out on the other side of it, you realize.
You can, you did it, you did it. Now I will say for me that some of what I've learned when I've gone through those really hard experiences is that I need to change some of the things that I'm doing to try and set myself up for fewer of those experiences. So, you know, whether it's self care, whether it's better boundaries.
Heather Mcginley (35:44)
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (35:48)
whether it is being unapologetic about what my needs are, whether they're frivolous to somebody else or not, I've recognized that I've got to do some work too and have tried to do that.
I do meditation a couple of times a week. Like I said, I do the acupuncture, I do, work out, I do all of that stuff. And, and if any one of those things falls off, it is because of a decision I've made and I will pay the price for it. I will pay the price for it. So, you you gotta, you gotta find what works for you and then be unapologetic about protecting that for yourself.
Heather Mcginley (36:07)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think life somehow gets a little bit easier when you own things, when you own it. This is my truth. This is reality. This is really what I think. And some of the things that I have been the most scared of once I start being open about it and telling the truth and owning it, somehow everything got lighter, which doesn't seem to make any sense, but I think it's a fact of the universe.
Clothilde Ewing (36:44)
Yeah.
I think that's right. I think that's right. And I don't know. I don't know where that self-inflicted pressure comes from. I don't know if that's the universe also. But yeah, you're right. I have felt that freeing feeling also when releasing things or just naming them or making a promise to myself. It's like, I remember the first time I went to
Heather Mcginley (36:56)
Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (37:09)
therapy. I, when I, when I, when I try to talk to other people about the merits of therapy and how they should consider it, I talk about how the best appointment of that whole series, which lasted many appointments, the, the best appointment was that first appointment where I just went in and, and I mean, afterwards,
I don't remember like up until that point ever feeling that light, ever feeling that light. I mean, just like getting it out and sharing and yeah, so free yourselves. It feels good. It feels good. It feels good.
Heather Mcginley (37:44)
It feels good. Yeah, it feels so good. Yeah. Somehow like the thing
you're most scared of you finally do it and you're like, that wasn't so bad. And now I feel so much better.
Clothilde Ewing (37:53)
Totally, I was listening to, who was it? think the Mel Robbins podcast recently, I think it was, I think the topic might've been about anxiety or something like that. And she was talking about how one of the tools, and this could've been a guess, so please forgive me if it was the guess who said this or it was Mel who reiterated this, but that really.
Heather Mcginley (37:58)
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Clothilde Ewing (38:14)
one of the best things you can do is naming, if you're nervous about something, naming the worst thing that could happen. Like, okay, I'm nervous to go read in front of the second group. What's the worst thing that could happen in front of that group? And if that happens, will you still be breathing? Like, will you be able to walk out of there? you whatever? And I totally get that. I completely appreciate that. Like what is the worst thing that could happen?
Heather Mcginley (38:19)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
Clothilde Ewing (38:40)
You're talking about like getting into this point where you're going to start querying and it's like, what's the worst thing that could happen? Somebody who doesn't get back to you. Okay. There's somebody else. And then there's somebody after that. Yeah. Yeah. Be okay.
Heather Mcginley (38:49)
can be okay with that.
Yeah, I think it
helps a lot. Well, Clo, I want to thank you so much for being here. It's been so great to catch up. Where can people find you if they want to work with you and we're here for you or buy your books?
Clothilde Ewing (38:58)
Yeah.
thank you. And thank you for having me. This has been a great conversation and freeing I feel lighter. ⁓ so, feel good. I would say I mainly on Instagram. so Clothilde Ewing, should I spell it out? Or is it? Okay. Okay. Great. So, ⁓ okay. So I would say, I would say, I would say Instagram is probably the best place. And then,
Heather Mcginley (39:06)
Yeah, I feel good.
You know what? I'm going to put this in the show notes too. So everyone don't worry. I will put things in show notes with hyperlinks.
Clothilde Ewing (39:26)
email as well. And so I'll share my email address with you afterwards because I, yeah, I a book one. then the Stella books are sold wherever books are sold. I definitely want to put in an extra plug for supporting your local bookstore. If you walk into your local bookstore and they don't have it, you can order it and then they will get it. But please support local when you can, because these are your neighbors, these are their jobs, and we need to support them so that they can continue to exist.
Heather Mcginley (39:53)
Yes. All right. Well, thank you to everyone for listening to the Happily Never After, especially if you are on your own journey through some big changes, and we hope you have a good week.
Clothilde Ewing (40:01)
Thank you.